Lightest bbk - F/R?

[roastbeef]

thanks for all that info, i totally get it.

Originally Posted by jritt@essex

Hopefully the above makes sense. We want to be as transparent about these things as possible. If we have fifty people step up and put down a deposit on an uber-lightweight RoastBeef spec kit, then of course we will make it. I have a strong feeling however, that most people are going to prefer the durability of the 372mm system. The extra few pounds savings of a smaller kit won't make enough difference in their lap times to offset the legendary durability our 372mm kit provides.

is using a CP6077-CP6078 caliper out of the question? less than 5lbs, titanium pistons, integrated carbon brake duct...
according to a spec sheet i found, it pairs with a 355mm rotor. the piston sizes are the same... i'm just hoping the ducting fits ok.
one thing i can't find, is cost.

the 372 kit is fantastic, don't get me wrong. but i crack the 355 rotors before they reach minimum thickness and i just want to focus on keeping heat out of the calipers and pads for longer pad life. losing more weight would be awesome as well.

[jritt@essex]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

thanks for all that info, i totally get it.
is using a CP6077-CP6078 caliper out of the question? less than 5lbs, titanium pistons, integrated carbon brake duct...
according to a spec sheet i found, it pairs with a 355mm rotor. the piston sizes are the same... i'm just hoping the ducting fits ok.
one thing i can't find, is cost.

the 372 kit is fantastic, don't get me wrong. but i crack the 355 rotors before they reach minimum thickness and i just want to focus on keeping heat out of the calipers and pads for longer pad life. losing more weight would be awesome as well.

Sir, you may want to sit down for this one...

If we sold you the CP6077/78 calipers, your price on a pair of those would be $17,842.84 ($8,921.42 per caliper). That is just for the calipers. As with all things racing, as you gobble up all the low-hanging fruit, the costs rise exponentially when you start stretching into the top limbs of the tree. At some point every additional ounce of weight you save comes at a hugely increased cost. This is one of those scenarios unfortunately.

Also, the mounting bolt pattern is different between the CP6077 (210mm) and our CP9668 for example (180mm). That means a new custom aluminum bracket would be required anyway.

I wish I had better news for you...sorry!

[roastbeef]

Yea, but what's our bulk discount on 50 kits from AP? Lol
Looks like I'll have to take the weight penalty on this one. A man can dream though.

One thing I'm going to have to research is if the pistons I have in this cp5060 kit matches any other pistons AP produces in titanium. I have a feeling I'll need a rebuild of my front kit soon and titanium pistons would be awesome.

[Bmwguy88]

Originally Posted by Redd

Weekend track car just go with Essex AP Pro 5000R and skip the future crying. Street bbk exhibit pad knockback at track. The AP Pro 5000R comes with anti-knockback springs installed. Consumables are also considerably cheaper than Brembo.

Thanks for the recommendation! This is also exactly what my shop recommended.

[slcook54]

jritt@essex Given this thread got bumped and you're active I was hoping for a couple of suggestions regarding my Essex setup. I've mostly interacted with Wade over email.

I'm running the 9660/9449 combo originally with DS1.11 pads for 12 days and now have done 1 track day on DS3.12's at Wade's recommendation.

I primarily run Laguna at decent pace (1:42's) and cannot get more than 4 days out of a set of front pads, at $600/set this is becoming more expensive than tires and I don't like the headache of having to swap them so frequently. I've talked to a lot of different people and feel like I have some combination of the below options:

Fronts

1. Move to 9668 setup
2. Run ducting
3. Run 9668 and ducting
4. Try different pad compounds outside of Ferodo
5. Move to different BBK setup, I notice some of the other providers run larger rotors 380x36 vs. 372v34. I'd sacrifice the weight for longevity.

Rears

I was able to get 7 days out of my rear DS1.11 pads, but the taper is extreme. This seems like a waste to me, could the pistons be sticking? This is a brand new system with roughly 12 track days on it. If I have to flip the pads, fine, but I may just elect to opt for another system, which don't suffer from such extreme taper, if any.

[Gossypiboma]

Running front ducting will likely provide the most benefit. 4 days seems a bit low to me, but ive never run those pads before.

I have the standard ST60/40 bbk and use Stoptech SR34 pads in the front and SR33 in the rear. I dont have any ducting and I get around 6 to 7 days on the front pads and double that in the rear. Minimal front pad tapering with never flipping pads and zero rear pad tapering. I'm also quite fast and run in the advanced run groups with R compound tires.

There seems to be a wide variation in people's experience, not sure why that is. Is Laguna exceptionally hard on brakes?

[jritt@essex]

Originally Posted by slcook54

jritt@essex Given this thread got bumped and you're active I was hoping for a couple of suggestions regarding my Essex setup. I've mostly interacted with Wade over email.

I'm running the 9660/9449 combo originally with DS1.11 pads for 12 days and now have done 1 track day on DS3.12's at Wade's recommendation.

I primarily run Laguna at decent pace (1:42's) and cannot get more than 4 days out of a set of front pads, at $600/set this is becoming more expensive than tires and I don't like the headache of having to swap them so frequently. I've talked to a lot of different people and feel like I have some combination of the below options:

Fronts

1. Move to 9668 setup
2. Run ducting
3. Run 9668 and ducting
4. Try different pad compounds outside of Ferodo
5. Move to different BBK setup, I notice some of the other providers run larger rotors 380x36 vs. 372v34. I'd sacrifice the weight for longevity.

Rears

I was able to get 7 days out of my rear DS1.11 pads, but the taper is extreme. This seems like a waste to me, could the pistons be sticking? This is a brand new system with roughly 12 track days on it. If I have to flip the pads, fine, but I may just elect to opt for another system, which don't suffer from such extreme taper, if any.

Hi,
Sorry I'm just seeing this now...haven't been on here in a bit!

Have you collected any disc or calipers temperatures? It's incredibly difficult to make recommendations without hard data on what exactly is happening in your specific situation. I'll do my best to give you some ideas though.

The first note is that every situation is different. That's why you see some people running our product and getting two years out of a set of discs and 20 track days out of a set of pads, while others do not. There are a mountain of variables that impact wear rates...every mod on the car, tire choice, power level, driving style, track being run, number of laps, etc., etc., etc...loads of variables that all impact wear rates. So comparing one's personal situation with someone else's is going to be very difficult. There is no apples-to-apples unfortunately.

Pad taper is completely normal and we see it on every system at every level...it just varies a bit. it's unavoidable, and there's nothing wrong with your rear brake system. Please read our Essex Track and Racing Pad Owner's Guide for more insights on that topic. That article will help you maximize your pad wear under any conditions.

In terms of CP9660 vs. CP9668, your situation is precisely why we have multiple caliper options. As expressed by others in this thread, some people want the thinner CP9660 caliper because it is the absolute lightest option available (6.1 lbs. + pad weight). They are willing to trade off a little wear for the unsprung weight advantage. In their situations however, that tradeoff may not be as severe as yours (they may not wear their system at anywhere near the rate that you are).

The CP9668 caliper weighs only half a pound more than the CP9660, but offers 40% greater pad thickness (25mm thick vs. 18mm thick). Since most manufacturers charge about the same price for both thicknesses of pads in the pad shape we use, you're getting a huge increase in your pad volume per dollar by going with the CP9668. The tradeoff is wheel fitment, since the CP9668 sticks out about 14mm closer to the wheel spokes. If you can fit the wider CP9668 in your wheels, or run a spacer and do so, that is your best bet. You'll gain so much more pad material at every pad swap, at no added cost, which is going to dramatically slow your rate of pad consumption and spending. Again, this is precisely why we have multiple caliper options, so we can find the correct fit for each owner.

For those who haven't seen it, we have a very detailed article on the Essex Blog comparing the narrower and wider AP Racing Radi-CALs: "Which AP Racing Radi-CAL is Right for Me, the CP9660 or CP9668)".

Depending on what your disc data tells you, ducting may or may not be a good option. You also have to be extremely careful about your duct implementation, or you can hurt your brake performance more than help it. I wrote an article on this topic that you should read before even considering any type of brake ducts: "Do I Need Brake Ducts on my Track Car?"
Nearly all of our brake kit customers find that they do NOT need brake ducts if they have our correct system for their situation on their car.


I would certainly encourage you to try other pad compounds than Ferodo. Brake pads are like ice cream, and everyone likes something different. You won't know what you love until you try a bunch of them. That said, the DS3.12 is a world-class endurance racing compound that is winning races and championships in GT car racing all over the globe. It's unlikely that you are going to find a pad compound that will last significantly longer than the DS3.12 with no other changes to the brake setup. Out of the many thousands of clients we have running the DS3.12, I have yet to have any tell me that they found a different pad that lasts substantially longer than the DS3.12 under all the same conditions...nor have we seen any on our brake dyno.

Moving to a different brake kit with larger discs is an option, but you're probably going to have to make even more tradeoffs going that route than you would moving to the CP9668 calipers. Our 372mm discs are about as big as you can squeeze inside most popular 18" track wheels. When we designed our systems, that's precisely why we created a clean-slate disc design in the 372mm size...to fit behind a wide range of 18's. If you go to a 380mm or larger disc, you'll most likely have to move to 19" wheels. With that move comes significantly more expensive tires, and added weight on both the brakes and the wheels and tires.

Our 72 and 84 vane discs are incredibly efficient, and you won't find anything in similar sizes that flow significantly more air...they just don't exist. Therefore, you aren't going to find anything that runs substantially cooler that will fit inside reasonably-sized track wheels...again, just doesn't exist.

My recommended course of action based on what you've presented would be:
1. Collect caliper and disc temp data if possible.
2. Replace your CP9660 system with a CP9668. This will instantly give you significantly more pad thickness per purchase and cut your spend rate on consumables. Our CP9668 setup was specifically designed for those who value durability and longevity over every ounce of weight savings.

I believe that will drop your spares consumption down to a level at which you're happier. We don't really have any CP9668/e9x M3 owners that I know of who have complained about their wear rates, and that includes the ones running slicks, driving on brutal braking tracks, and even some with forced induction.

Hopefully the above makes sense and is helpful. Feel free to reach out to me personally if you'd like more input. Thank you for your continued support!
Jeff

[slcook54]

Thanks Jeff.

My 9668 kit arrived yesterday.

[jritt@essex]

Originally Posted by slcook54

Thanks Jeff.

My 9668 kit arrived yesterday.

Early Christmas! Please check in with me via PM or email after you run them and let me know how it goes. I think you'll find the pad wear is significantly better with the wider setup. Thank you very much for your continued support. We really appreciate it!