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08-17-2009, 09:21 PM | #45 |
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Our local CCA club has a rule that if you have DSC it cannot be completely turned off. I am in the B class but an intermediate driver at best. My main goals at driving events are 1. take my car home 2. have fun driving and enjoying the company of other enthusiasts and 3. incremental improvement in my driving skill. Now having MDM on may be a hindrance re 3., but I'm not getting paid to do this and at my age will never progress to racing. Pacific Raceways is not a great venue to test the limits. I've observed 4 cars totalled at driving events I have attended in the last year.
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08-17-2009, 10:48 PM | #46 |
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Wow.. just took about an hours to read all these posts, makes me feel like a very noobie all over again. I've had about 11 track days so far... another two coming up this weekend and for the first time I turned DSC off at Summit Point, which was my 10th track day. It was so much of a difference than having MDM on because I almost PISSED in my PANTS !! lol... Like most noobies do, I was in pedal to the metal mode exiting the turn and took me long enough to realize that method was STUPIDITY~! Still got WAYYY too much to learn, but time to time putting DSC off and knowing your limits will indeed help increase your driving skills.. (I think)~
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08-18-2009, 09:00 AM | #47 |
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Bet you learned heaps about throttle control. Next time you turn it off it will feel more natural.
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08-19-2009, 08:52 PM | #48 | |
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By the way, you wrote "that" many times when you should have written "who". "I was the one WHO suggested taking a...". Sorry, that's just a pet peeve of mine. Take care all, drive fast, be smart, and have fun for a long, long time!
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08-20-2009, 08:16 AM | #49 | |
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I was actually advocating getting a fully caged race car for drivers who are in the process of picking up and practicing advanced skills--mainly for safety reasons. Obviously, you should still be mindful of the amount of risk you are taking, but, by definition, there is more risk/experimentation involved in practicing some of the advanced skills and driving faster. Your "limit" should be going up as you learn and you should obviously never intentionally exceed it (not to mention the car's limit), but you should drive somewhat close to it or you will not learn how to go faster--if that is your goal. And, sometimes that is what happens for you to really understand where it is (otherwise, there would never be any accidents, incidents, spins, run offs, etc. on the track in advanced groups--excluding pure stupidity). However, you, as a long time instructor, have a much deeper understanding of how students behave in general, so I'd defer to your opinion if you disagree about that part of what I said. Cheers.
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08-20-2009, 08:16 AM | #50 | |
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08-20-2009, 09:11 AM | #51 | ||
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Peace!
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08-20-2009, 09:35 AM | #52 |
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Sure, a pro test driver can/should run the car like clockwork around a track, but that is not the norm during an HPDE in any of the groups as far as I can tell. I see plenty of incidents that are not linked to unexpected events in the instructor groups and club races, etc. So, in that sense, an advanced driver is not an expert driver. Anyway, but I do agree that an HPDE should primarily be about having fun, and that competitive driving is not exactly a part of this discussion, but there is still an element of learning how to drive faster. I do understand that does not happen because you start "pushing" though. Cheers.
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08-20-2009, 06:38 PM | #53 |
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Hey Guys - just thought I would add my $0.02 worth. I had my second track day in the M yestersday. The first day I ran MDM on all day as I wanted to get used to the car.
Yesterday morning I did the first two runs in MDM mode to get the track layout down (never tracked there before). After that I turned the DSC OFF for the rest of the day. I would say that I learned more about my car in the next two sessions than I had previous. It teaches you to be alot smoother and in turn makes you much faster. I feel like I am driving the car at about 8/10ths now and will build on that the next track day. I spent a session in the passanger seat of Gearhead's M who drives at about 12/10ths so I know there is lots of room for improvement for me. He has some serious experience and skills! All in all DSC OFF (with some self discipline) is the best way to track and learn your car IMO. |
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09-12-2009, 09:53 AM | #54 |
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MDM for track use?
Hi Guys,
I have spend some time on the track before but always with a front wheels drive car. The M3 was my first Rear drive car and I must say it is so much more fun to drive. Well anyways I went to the local track and put the car in MDM but is the MDM suppose to be used for a full day of track use? or is it just worthy for a couple of laps.? I know the true skilled drivers don't really need the DSC at all. I know the MDM is electronic controlled so will it over head or fail after heavy use??
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09-12-2009, 10:20 AM | #55 |
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There is a sticky thread on this, so I merged your question into that thread. The first part of your question has been discussed here. As to wear on the brake system, you'll get more additional wear on the brake system to the extent that it is intervening. So, instead of your foot doing the braking, the computer is doing it. And, you do get uneven (and possibly more) pad wear (and you can say rotor and caliper wear) as a result. One can speculate that you would run higher rotor/pad temperatures as well. I don't know the specifics of how the computer executes MDM braking and if there are additional mechanicms that see use when MDM kick in that are not normally used.
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09-13-2009, 02:47 AM | #56 | |
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09-13-2009, 09:34 AM | #57 | |
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09-13-2009, 12:09 PM | #58 |
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MDM is designed for the track....
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09-13-2009, 03:50 PM | #59 |
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Reading through these post, particularly Lucid's you would be under the impression that MDM somehow is micro-managing your driving at the track. It's possible but I find it a bit hard to believe. I've ridden in the M3 when MDM clearly intervened and it sure feels to me when a given slip angle (moderate at least) is exceeded the system intervenes.
I've also driven the M3 in MDM mode (every time at the track) and I can't say that I feel anything. Now I've never driven with DSC off, but if MDM is really intervening it's really subtle. If you believe the manual which would argue that it doesn't activate until you are in trouble then there is no micro or early intervention for MDM. It states, (page 76) under M Dynamic Mode, "Only at the absolute limit of stability does the system intervene to stabilize the vehicle by reducing engine power and applying the brakes on the wheels." This sure does not sound like what folks are talking about here nor does it reflect my experience. Am I missing something? |
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09-13-2009, 04:15 PM | #60 |
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The system seems to have two modes of intervention: cutting power and applying the brakes. I guess that is kind of obvious. I am inclined to believe when power is cut or major braking interventions are made, the light flashes for sure. I am also inclined to believe that the light does not flash when minor braking interventions are made although I have no proof. I am primarly basing that on how much more stable the car was at WGI after I turned MDM off (WGI is particularly bumpy at places and I didn't see the light flash much at all but the front pads were worn rather unevenly), and perhaps on a similar experience I had at turn 10 at NHMS where the surface is rather bumpy at the exit down the hill, but at that point the light will flash for sure if you throw the car around.
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09-13-2009, 04:29 PM | #61 |
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Now that I would believe, particularly for bumpy or uneven surfaces as I think the system probably has a lower threshold for that sort of "unsettled" condition. I've run almost exclusively on pretty smooth surfaces and maybe that's why I don't think MDM is doing much.
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09-13-2009, 09:01 PM | #62 | |
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hopes thats it.
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09-18-2009, 11:09 AM | #63 |
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At the Advanced M-School at VIR we kept the MDM on all the time. It's a smooth, relatively high speed track with only one or two slower corners. Oak Tree, the tightest corner, is the only place that I felt the DSC intrude and that was when I was trying to agressively rotate the car at the end of the corner, to go onto the long straight. That's the only place where I felt like MDM was costing time. I was driving 8-10th and then 9-10ths for me and focusing on being smooth and learning the track, so maybe I would have felt the DSC intrusion more if I'd been at 10-10th and trying to qualify.
OTOH, DSC is a HUGE impediment in autocross. AX is almost all tight, 2d-gear corners, including 180-degree corners where you want to trail-brake in and have the car rotate toward the end of the corner. When you start rotating the car, the inside brake activates to kill the rotation AND the throttle response is killed for close to a second. It's a one or two-second penalty on a 40-second lap. If you want to enjoy and have fun with your car at HPDEs, then I see no reason to turn MDM off. If you're being smooth and applying the throttle correctly, then you should hardly notice it. However, if you want to become a racer to compete in timed events or against other drivers, then, as Lucid says, you'll need to learn to drive with it off, to avoid bad habit and get the full potential out of the car. As Lucid also said, learning advanced techiques on fast tracks is dangerous and needs to be consider differently from HPDE events. Dave
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09-19-2009, 11:37 AM | #64 |
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No MDM for me on the track.
I do understand that some tracks (e.g., the Glen, ...) have very narrow escapes along the track so in these cases it might make sense but my take is: if I can't remove DSC on a track then when would I be able to learn the limits of the car (and mine)??? At Lime Rock I ran with DSC off and I will do the same at Lightning in October. Insurances are made for this I guess... Again, this is just my personal preference and I am not suggesting that someone is right or wrong to do otherwise.
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09-21-2009, 11:06 AM | #65 |
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I would run with it on. It will blink when it's coming on showing you that you're getting on the gas too early. After a few laps, I was at the point where it wouldn't come on anymore so I just learned from it. I'm sure that I could go a bit faster with it off after realizing how the car felt when it came on but I like my car shiny and in one piece
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11-25-2009, 10:36 AM | #66 | |
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I would suggest you try it once, it is very fun. |
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