Track forum general chit chat.

[macdude357]

Originally Posted by D1ESEL

Also I think I want to get some BMW Performance seats to hold me in a little better, I don't want to loose reclining abilities and my car has cloth so at least I am sticking in the seats.

Look into getting a set of Schroth Quickfit Pro 4 point harnesses. They will hold you in place with the stock seats, work like a 3 point in an accident (Anti-submarine) and can be used with a HANS device as well.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

w00t. Which day? I'll be there on the 17th. you too?? My list:

Hankook RS4 (My RE71R are dead)
Dinan camber plates
Dinan front control arm monoballs
Alignment
CSF oil cooler
Oil change
M performance exhaust (ordered, not likely to arrive in time)

i'm going on the 29th. first time!

Originally Posted by roastbeef

you still need to borrow my muffler?

not anymore. thanks!

[M3 Number 86]

i think my first 4 events I looked at time. It was pointless.

Then for a year I just experimented car control on open track (do all the things that people say not to do since it will upset the car) so that my brain gets a download.

I still can't push myself to go more than 8/10 out there. Don't wanna break anything. Myself included.

[kyippee]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

i'm going on the 29th. first time!

Aw too bad, was hoping same event.

All this safety talk has me thinking about buying coverage again. Previously bought from Lockton and Ontrack before. I just realized RLI/Hagerty coverage is providing the most affordable for my situation, valuing my car at $35,000 and 15% deductible gave me a quote of $177. This was cheaper per-event than Lockton and Ontrack, even when I tried quoting a 9-pack with Lockton. Same deductible, same car value.

I stopped buying after I got warmed up again after a long hiatus from track days. Maybe I'll reconsider as I'm exploring the limits of my car more now.

Good article about them;
http://trackdayzone.com/articles-gen...urance-package

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by dparm

Someone who is new to HPDE needs to just get slightly better brake pads, fresh brake fluid, and put the rest of their energy and money into learning the car's limits.

I have been criticized for spending a lot of money on my M3. But when I took on this project, I looked at 10 years duration of track days and I tried to holistically balance my spending on all systems, power, braking, aero, cooling and seats. Granted, there are cheaper components than the ones I selected. My objectives were to not mess with the interior besides the seats. However, this is not a final decision. A BK bar with 6 point is non intrusive and can be folded and a red 6-point adds to the interior "look" rather than detract. IMHO.

At the end if the day, and what I like about America, is everyone has the rights to allocate their funds as they wish, and more importantly, everyone has different opinion were the funds are spent.

Reading the "Speed Secret" by Ross Bentely (chapter every night) helps to crystalize the HPDE objective with a minor correction and which I adapted wholeheartedly:

Manage available traction with the objective of keeping the car shiny.

So we are not a professional drivers with a garage full of options and race engineers and we not there at HPDE to win anything.

The main point I am trying to make is that on a given day, we have a set units of traction available to us and that's it. Manage it, or the car will not be shinny.

so, when I go to HPDE with 2013 tires on the front, and 2014 tires on the rear from two different manufactures, I am aiming for 1:41-1:43 and that's it.

When I have new ADO8R I aim for 1:37-1:38 with hopes to drop to 1:35 someday.

If this is the first session of the day, I am happy with 1:46-1:47.

It is not about going faster. It is managing traction at the current day, current session, current weather conditions.

I was advise many times to get instructor. I took one with me and it was the only time i went off the track in serious way. Nothing was damaged and no one got injured. But adding instructor is not a panacea. It is a tool to add in the right time and at the right stage of learning the skill.

short point. The book is very good and I recommend it.

[ThunderMoose]

After doing this hobby for 6+ years, I realize that everyone has different opinions and objectives. That being said, the guys that I trust the most on the track have followed pretty much the same path.

Firstly, they stayed in instructed run groups for quite a while. Part of this was a function of the organizations that we had around us at the time. The Drivers Edge requires instructors for the first two driver levels and 1/2 time for the third driver level. I must have had 2 dozen instructors in the first two years. They helped me a lot.

Secondly, they stayed on street tires for probably the first two years. They developed good control at lower speeds.

Thirdly, they prioritized safety over go fast mods. Proper seats, harness, and HANS before more power or aero.

As to the TC or no TC discussion, I think that it depends on your car and objectives. Euro MDM on E9x is pretty darn good and you can probably drive the rest of your life with it on and not care. On E46, TC is not drive able. If your goal is to drive without it, start sooner than later. I had a year before I turned it off and spent the next 6 months spinning once or more a weekend.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by ricardofors68

Points taken. OSB? I know when I mess up and I can take criticism well as I like to learn from my mistakes. Insurance declared car a loss, be getting a check sometime this week. I am covered for hpde but just market value of the car, I think that your track mods gets covered on track insurance so I'll be looking onto that.
As far as having a passenger, this experience will make me extremely gun shy about getting the most out of the car with a passenger.
So on to my next project. Next track day is in August, VIR.

That's just about the fastest claims process I've ever seen. You are one lucky SOB that they are covering it as I've never heard of any auto insurer paying out for HPDE.

Are you in touch with the instructor who was riding with you?

[ayao]

Originally Posted by dparm

Intermediate, in my experience, is the most dangerous. Too many clubs rush people out of the beginner group once they determine the driver can follow simple directions, but they still haven't fully vetted that the driver knows the basics of car control. It's a false sense of confidence that the clubs put on the driver, and it's why I think there needs to be more standardization among clubs for instruction and run group requirements.

Can't even begin to tell you how many times I am in an intermediate group with guys who don't even know the racing line or have zero situational awareness. The Motorsport Safety Foundation has been making an effort to improve this -- I highly suggest everyone take a look and donate if you believe in what they're doing: https://www.motorsport-safety.org/initiatives/certified

Anyway, I'll quit ranting.

I ended up lingering in my driving org's intermediate run group for longer than I should have - the perceived higher speeds of the advanced groups was something I did not feel ready for. But as you point out, there was a palpable level of inexperience and situational unawareness in the intermediate group that bordered on dangerous at times that pushed me into advanced. When I finally made the jump, it was a total breath of fresh air driving on track with other people who were paying attention, or at least had the mental bandwidth to pay attention.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by ayao

I ended up lingering in my driving org's intermediate run group for longer than I should have - the perceived higher speeds of the advanced groups was something I did not feel ready for. But as you point out, there was a palpable level of inexperience and situational unawareness in the intermediate group that bordered on dangerous at times that pushed me into advanced. When I finally made the jump, it was a total breath of fresh air driving on track with other people who were paying attention, or at least had the mental bandwidth to pay attention.

It's refreshing to hear that you have the situational awareness to recognize others' lack of situational awareness. Defensive driving is definitely not something you only use on the street.

[redpriest]

I always found some of the advanced groups to be more dangerous, because people have egos and a lot of "My car is expensive I need to be in advanced run group" happens.

My GTR incident is partially my fault for being aggressive for lap times, and partially his fault for not having awareness that his skill and car was slow AF in turns.

[dparm]

And this is why you respect the blend line, folks. Jump to 1:30 if it doesn't start there automatically:

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by dparm

And this is why you respect the blend line, folks. Jump to 1:30 if it doesn't start there automatically:

Miata with a death wish, good lord.

[CorruptCommie]

Miata's... smh. Does that idiot even have a rear view mirror? Reminds me of people merging on the highway and crossing all lanes of traffic to get to the left lane.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by redpriest

Miata with a death wish, good lord.

Originally Posted by CorruptCommie

Miata's... smh. Does that idiot even have a rear view mirror? Reminds me of people merging on the highway and crossing all lanes of traffic to get to the left lane.

Per the comments, he was black flagged immediately. Thank God the ZR1 driver had good situational awareness and strong brakes.

It's also more ammunition for why I hate Miatas at track days.

[CorruptCommie]

Originally Posted by dparm

Per the comments, he was black flagged immediately. Thank God the ZR1 driver had good situational awareness and strong brakes.

It's also more ammunition for why I hate Miatas at track days.

The only thing I loathe more is 944's. Just like Miatas, they are always in your way, but there's the added bonus of sliding in coolant when they decide to punt themselves off track from a mechanical.

[kyippee]

I like chasing down miatas on tight tracks like Sonoma or Thunderhill West

[Azeka1]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

After doing this hobby for 6+ years, I realize that everyone has different opinions and objectives. That being said, the guys that I trust the most on the track have followed pretty much the same path.

Firstly, they stayed in instructed run groups for quite a while. Part of this was a function of the organizations that we had around us at the time. The Drivers Edge requires instructors for the first two driver levels and 1/2 time for the third driver level. I must have had 2 dozen instructors in the first two years. They helped me a lot.

Secondly, they stayed on street tires for probably the first two years. They developed good control at lower speeds.

Thirdly, they prioritized safety over go fast mods. Proper seats, harness, and HANS before more power or aero.

As to the TC or no TC discussion, I think that it depends on your car and objectives. Euro MDM on E9x is pretty darn good and you can probably drive the rest of your life with it on and not care. On E46, TC is not drive able. If your goal is to drive without it, start sooner than later. I had a year before I turned it off and spent the next 6 months spinning once or more a weekend.

I hope the instructor noted earlier makes a quick recovery.

This is great advice. To add to point 2, it never hurts to seek out skid pad time and/or car-control-clinics.

As intrusive as it is, I personally ran DSC on my Z4M Coupe for around 10 events in the past year THEN turned it off after spending time on a skid pad AND being fully self-aware of when/where it was cutting power. The result was learning to be smooth to minimize DSC engagement and progressively being able to slide the car. This translated to finding 4 seconds over 10 sessions at NJMP Lightning (1:19 -> 1:15).

In short, be patient. Learn your car. Invest in Driver Mods (DE's, Kart time and Speed Secrets books). Lap times will follow.

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by CorruptCommie

The only thing I loathe more is 944's. Just like Miatas, they are always in your way, but there's the added bonus of sliding in coolant when they decide to punt themselves off track from a mechanical.

That guy was right on the ass of the other car - that just seems foolhardy dangerous.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by CorruptCommie

The only thing I loathe more is 944's. Just like Miatas, they are always in your way, but there's the added bonus of sliding in coolant when they decide to punt themselves off track from a mechanical.

I don't see many 944s at track days around here. Miatas are the ubiquitous meme-tier track car in the Midwest.

[jid2]

On that Miata pulling out the guy continued to accelerate assuming he would stay over, and then started braking at the point of "crap we are going to hit". I find it helpful to just assume the guy in front is an idiot and then plan accordingly. People in front of me stay classified as an "idiot" until I've done enough laps with them to know how they behave. Sure you can't just burn down laps that way, and some session are kinda throw away. But if I wanted more I'd go racing.

[Longboarder]

Wow. Hope the HPDE instructor is going to make a full recovery.

Thanks to all of you that volunteer to instruct at BMW CCA, POC, etc because at one point we were all newbs and needed the help, whether we appreciated it at the time or not.

[scotty_miller]

Just ordered the Schroth SHR neck restraint. Seeing all this stuff the past few days has really spooked me. Can't put a damn price on safety... or your life