Scary rod bearing thread s85

[Leonardo629]

kawasaki, thanks for the good info, I believe as long as we are between 4~6 bar as per the service manual, we are fine.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

A little something to add, I have been running the 0w40 mobil for a while now. I installed a gauge in the car to monitor OP. So far so good. I have got it to about 240 on the oil and still have 35psi at idle. At 210 oil I have 40psi. Full hot (240) is 80 at 8500 and 210 at 8500 is around 85-88
In conclusion the pressure is just fine for what we need. Although every car could be a little different I will have no problem running this oil from this point forward.
I never checked the pressure before the gauge install but now that I know there is good pressure I will never go back.

Thanks for the info! Makes me feel confident seeing those numbers! If the pressure is that high at 240F it is obviously all the oil that the car needs and the TWS is overkill!

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

A little something to add, I have been running the 0w40 mobil for a while now. I installed a gauge in the car to monitor OP. So far so good. I have got it to about 240 on the oil and still have 35psi at idle. At 210 oil I have 40psi. Full hot (240) is 80 at 8500 and 210 at 8500 is around 85-88
In conclusion the pressure is just fine for what we need. Although every car could be a little different I will have no problem running this oil from this point forward.
I never checked the pressure before the gauge install but now that I know there is good pressure I will never go back.

Thank you for the reassuring info, Great

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Thanks for the info! Makes me feel confident seeing those numbers! If the pressure is that high at 240F it is obviously all the oil that the car needs and the TWS is overkill!

So you think BMW recommends TWS to maintain pressure at high temp?

You are not forced to use TWS 10w-60. It is only preferred by BMW according to the owner's handbook. it also goes onto say, "if the car is used at temperatures below -20 c/-4 f, for longer periods, BMW services will recommend a suitable oil."

[rypik@BW]

Do my suggestion to use (ofc after shells replacement) tungsten disulfide or at least molybdenum disulfide oil additives makes any logical sense ? Yes, there is some MoS2 already in some oils available on the market, but not in every of them, and in various numbers.

IF they're most available and known lubricious additives for any kind of engine oil, since clearances seems to be not wisely choosen, it IMO might extend live of shells during low-temp dry-starts.

Any opinions on that idea ?

[Longwong]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Thanks for the info! Makes me feel confident seeing those numbers! If the pressure is that high at 240F it is obviously all the oil that the car needs and the TWS is overkill!

Actually nobody chooses an oil based on the pressure it will maintain. A million oils will maintain normal pressure. Had zero to do with why they chose tws or has nothing to do with proving tws is not necessary given a lower weight oil maintains pressure. Still maintain 0w40 or less is going to be inadequate for anything but the bearing issue. Engine wear and heat will be a much bigger issue.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Thanks for the info! Makes me feel confident seeing those numbers! If the pressure is that high at 240F it is obviously all the oil that the car needs and the TWS is overkill!

I wish I had the info from the tws oil but if I didn't change oil I guess I wouldn't have needed the gauge.
On cold start it still has 90psi

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Longwong

Actually nobody chooses an oil based on the pressure it will maintain. A million oils will maintain normal pressure. Had zero to do with why they chose tws or has nothing to do with proving tws is not necessary given a lower weight oil maintains pressure. Still maintain 0w40 or less is going to be inadequate for anything but the bearing issue. Engine wear and heat will be a much bigger issue.

Dude seriously, Actually many track junkies choose oil based on idle pressures, not just for this car but many in general.

And yet you are running the 0-50 that shears back to a 40 in no time.

[VCMpower]

This sounds right. I look forward to the data when someone opens up to .0025 on rods.

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

A little something to add, I have been running the 0w40 mobil for a while now. I installed a gauge in the car to monitor OP. So far so good. I have got it to about 240 on the oil and still have 35psi at idle. At 210 oil I have 40psi. Full hot (240) is 80 at 8500 and 210 at 8500 is around 85-88
In conclusion the pressure is just fine for what we need. Although every car could be a little different I will have no problem running this oil from this point forward.
I never checked the pressure before the gauge install but now that I know there is good pressure I will never go back.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Dude seriously, Actually many track junkies choose oil based on idle pressures, not just for this car but many in general.

And yet you are running the 0-50 that shears back to a 40 in no time.

I'm thinking longwong and perple derple should get together and make a race team. Between longwongs engine building skills and perples 2 whole track days making him and advanced driver they should be really set.

[Leonardo629]

then care to explain why a 9000rpm 458 Italia calls for 5W40?

PU 5W40 and M1 0W40 has similar HTHS rating, which means when all hell breaks loose inside the V8, the oil film will not shear, and will prevent metal to metal contact.

Do you honest believe Torco can offer a better base stock than say Mobil/Exxon?

Originally Posted by Longwong

Actually nobody chooses an oil based on the pressure it will maintain. A million oils will maintain normal pressure. Had zero to do with why they chose tws or has nothing to do with proving tws is not necessary given a lower weight oil maintains pressure. Still maintain 0w40 or less is going to be inadequate for anything but the bearing issue. Engine wear and heat will be a much bigger issue.

[JohnAnthony]

Originally Posted by Leonardo629

then care to explain why a 9000rpm 458 Italia calls for 5W40?

PU 5W40 and M1 0W40 has similar HTHS rating, which means when all hell breaks loose inside the V8, the oil film will not shear, and will prevent metal to metal contact.

Do you honest believe Torco can offer a better base stock than say Mobil/Exxon?

since every manufacturer has their own Oil partner
at least one reason for it is that Shell Helix Ultra products 0W40 & 5W40 have the same viscosity 40C

[Leonardo629]

John, I'm well aware of the Nissan/M1, Ferrari/Shell, BMW/Castrol affiliation, but Shell also makes a 10W60 for the Enzo, but Ferrari didn't prescribe that oil for their 458 Italia. I know it's apples to oranges, but can a flat crank 4.5L V8 really mean that much less stress inside the motor vs. our S65?

[kawasaki00]

When it comes to base stock BP, Chevron and ExxonMobil make almost all the oil that you pour into your engine. All the smaller companies take the base stock and add whatever add pack they desire and then market and sell it as private label.

[JohnAnthony]

Originally Posted by Leonardo629

John, I'm well aware of the Nissan/M1, Ferrari/Shell, BMW/Castrol affiliation, but Shell also makes a 10W60 for the Enzo, but Ferrari didn't prescribe that oil for their 458 Italia. I know it's apples to oranges, but can a flat crank 4.5L V8 really mean that much less stress inside the motor vs. our S65?

if you want to compare recommendations here are the ones i know of that apply

Ferrari F50
5W40 + 10W60

Ferrari 559 vs 559GTO
5W40 vs 10W60

Ferrari 550 to 575
10W60 to 5W40 [a-la BMW w/ 2000 vs 2001+ E39 M5]



Astoin Martin
I'm confident most of the specs are based on SUMP used
Wet Sump = 10W60
Dry Sump = 0W40

10W60
DB7 V12 Vantage
DB7, -Volante
Lagonda, -Limousine
Le Mans Vantage
V8 Coupe / Volante
V8, -Vantage, -Volante, -Zagato
Vantage
Vantage 4.7 V8
Virage, -Volante
Zagato 5.3 Coupe (322kW)


0W40
DB9
DB9 5.9 V12 Convertible (350kW)
DBS 5.9 V12, -Touchtronic
Rapide 6.0 V12 (350kW)
V12 5.9 V12 Coupe (380kW)
Vanquish S 5.9 V12
Vanquish V12



Mclaren F1
5W40 now Castrol TWS



EDIT:

why does the 458 use 40W vs the S65 use 60W?

-to my knowledge Ferrari has been using 40 weight across the entire range since the 90s and their cars are all dry sump, when it comes time to draw up a new engine they're not exactly scrapping one V8 and starting from scratch.
-BMW on the other hand did, they started w/ i6 and went to v8s, the V8 was made to run with the TWS and then the S65+S85 were "supposedly" designed to run w/ TWS too.
-I think the combination of a family saloon being run at racing temps w/ a wetsump would require the 60W, luckily Castrol made a damn good 60W that would work reasonably for daily use, but if it's all light commute with the occasional dump to redline engine doesn't really need 60W [especially if clearances are the issue]

*obviously what i said is not very scientific, it's simple observations

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by rypik@BW

I'm new into your community, hi there folks I just found your thread couple of minutes ago, and as i'm after some related works i could only add that after some discussion here we have also opted for too tight clearances for factory shells and rod. We found it at the very beggining just by looking at AZD/REPs@ista where clearances are shown, and it just looked not so ordinary for BMW engines we already looked deeply into.

It's obvious that in europe we have S65/S85 bearing issues as well, and i'll be posting bearing photos from upcoming works (at least 4 cars are queued for preventive mainetanance and 2 were done already within one month) to enhance this thread with some valuable knowledge which i think is already in this thread and really not much there is to say.

I just wonder why there are ones that believe that BMW is not responsible for topic issue. IMO they just wanted to sell a product which for most of users or rather abusers is something quite universal, that could be driven on daily basis without looking much into oil temp and all other technical stuff and without sacrificing something....they choose path that ended in this thread. Though not sure why really, keeping in mind that both of S65/S85 were new engines and it wasn't related to availability of shells sizes from mahle or any other vendor...

Within the specs that BMW opted for, it just could not be universal (in terms of bearing/rod specs and suggested oil) and everyone here should understand it and just live with it unless there will be some undersized solutions available, if they ever be at all...

I could admit that's not something that we expected, to get upper-classy engine with such surprise inside, but at the end of the day it's just an engine, not your leg neither liver..

I'll try to gather and post there some S85 related warranty numbers from my country, and check if there were any consistency concerning low-temp seasons, as i clearly remember two friends of mine who had their S85 blown nicely just after start in winter time. Always thought that running 10W60 whilst there is outside -15... -20 is not very smart idea which added to marginal clearances seems to be quite logic.

Thank you so much for joining the forum and adding your expertise to this thread. I do have one request for you. You mentioned above that you have seen the BMW specs for bearing clearance. None of my documents or online repair programs (DIS) show this specification. On my versions of DIS, the bearing clearance spec is left blank with no data in it. We measured my numbers (shown earlier in this thread) by measuring on two cranks and multiple sets of rod bearings. Would you be kind enough to look up the bearing clearance spec and post it here? A screen shot of the page would be best.

Thanks

[rypik@BW]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Would you be kind enough to look up the bearing clearance spec and post it here? A screen shot of the page would be best.

Thanks

What about my suggestion to use tungsten disulfide to prolong vitality of bearing whilst using W60 oil grade ?

S65 the same

[aussiem3]

Regular guy is correct. Clearance numbers are not available.

[Longwong]

Oil pressure is certainly part of the decision of which oil to run but certainly only one component and the weights are chose for a variety of other reasons including clearences, engine design etc. Many oils and weights offer equal oil pressure given any modern variable oil pump so just because one oil offers the same pressure it does not mean the oil is totally compatible. However you need an oil that runs the same pressure to be compatibile. Those are not the same two things however.

And actually the mobile 0w50 weight is not nearly as relevant even if it sheers to 40 which there is no data on because it has 1600 ZDDP which is the entire point. Lighter oil with much higher anti-friction zddp which is an equally effective barrier from metal-metal contact. Oil weight is another important factor but not the only one. Plus you are using a 0w40 weight so not sure what your point is that it sheers down to a 40 when you are recommending a 40? Only the 0w40 you are using has 600 zddp level which is a third of the mobil 1 R oil which means you have minimal protection at hard temps

[1MOREMOD]

A sphincter says what.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by Longwong

Oil pressure is certainly part of the decision of which oil to run but certainly only one component and the weights are chose for a variety of other reasons including clearences, engine design etc. Many oils and weights offer equal oil pressure given any modern variable oil pump so just because one oil offers the same pressure it does not mean the oil is totally compatible. However you need an oil that runs the same pressure to be compatibile. Those are not the same two things however.

And actually the mobile 0w50 weight is not nearly as relevant even if it sheers to 40 which there is no data on because it has 1600 ZDDP which is the entire point. Lighter oil with much higher anti-friction zddp which is an equally effective barrier from metal-metal contact. Oil weight is another important factor but not the only one. Plus you are using a 0w40 weight so not sure what your point is that it sheers down to a 40 when you are recommending a 40? Only the 0w40 you are using has 600 zddp level which is a third of the mobil 1 R oil which means you have minimal protection at hard temps

I will ask once more..... Give us the credentials that make you qualified to make these statements, otherwise piss off with your bullshit!

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Longwong

Only the 0w40 you are using has 600 zddp level which is a third of the mobil 1 R oil which means you have minimal protection at hard temps

Whoever you are I think it is time you go away in the bushes. Once again you have no clue what you are talking about. Here ya go, if you dont know what you are talking about maybe you should shut up.
Bottom of the list.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Longwong

Oil pressure is certainly part of the decision of which oil to run but certainly only one component and the weights are chose for a variety of other reasons including clearences, engine design etc. Many oils and weights offer equal oil pressure given any modern variable oil pump so just because one oil offers the same pressure it does not mean the oil is totally compatible. However you need an oil that runs the same pressure to be compatibile. Those are not the same two things however.

And actually the mobile 0w50 weight is not nearly as relevant even if it sheers to 40 which there is no data on because it has 1600 ZDDP which is the entire point. Lighter oil with much higher anti-friction zddp which is an equally effective barrier from metal-metal contact. Oil weight is another important factor but not the only one. Plus you are using a 0w40 weight so not sure what your point is that it sheers down to a 40 when you are recommending a 40? Only the 0w40 you are using has 600 zddp level which is a third of the mobil 1 R oil which means you have minimal protection at hard temps

This is the most bizarre post in this whole thread (I think). Seriously, you should just delete these posts as they ruin the high level of discourse that is being attempted here with high end engine builders, mechanical engineers with a lot of experience, tribologists, etc. If you do not understand the theory behind a hydrodynamic bearing along with all that goes along with it (and your posts clearly show that to be the case), it would be helpful to the board not to clutter up this thread.