Custom Clevite Rod Bearings

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

If you dont like them.....dont buy them. Simple

Could not have said it better myself.

[slowandfurious]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

If you dont like them.....dont buy them. Simple
But whatever. I dont see you doing anything but sitting behind a computer. At least there are a few guys here that actually try to make a difference.
This is how much money I am making on this deal ...$0.00, everything that has been contributed to this point has been for the good of not only my car but to help others as well. Actually I am in the negative because we have been shipping parts back and forth across the country with my own money. If you are not interested in the results of the bearings move away from this thread and make your 100% assumptions somewhere else

Well said.

[FazerBoy]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

If you dont like them.....dont buy them. Simple
But whatever. I dont see you doing anything but sitting behind a computer. At least there are a few guys here that actually try to make a difference.
This is how much money I am making on this deal ...$0.00, everything that has been contributed to this point has been for the good of not only my car but to help others as well. Actually I am in the negative because we have been shipping parts back and forth across the country with my own money. If you are not interested in the results of the bearings move away from this thread and make your 100% assumptions somewhere else

Well said!

BMW, with all their hundreds of highly qualified engineers, appear to have somehow got something wrong when it comes to the longevity of the rod bearings in the S65 engine in the E9x M3 (as well as the S85 in the M5).

Any sensible person can see that the guys behind BE bearings are putting in a tremendous amount of time and effort in trying to solve a potentially very expensive issue that could hit any of us with E9x M3s of any age, of any mileage, at any time, seemingly without much warning.

This is not the sort of thing that's going to make them rich so they're obviously doing it to try and achieve a viable long-term solution for themselves and this community.

I am no expert and cannot say whether what they are doing is correct, but they are certainly doing a lot more than those people moaning and whining.

It's very simple. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy these bearings. If you don't agree with the methodology or conclusions you should politely put forward your own views and theories as part of the discussion and in a constructive manner. Otherwise just go away and do your own thing.

[jav_au]

Are these on sale now? I see one seller has them as in Stock and ready for shipping? Which reseller is going to distribute internationally? Also can somebody tell me which arp bolts I should be buying to use with these as I have heard there is more than 1 type? Cheers.

[aus]

Lets not forget BMW has a precedent with bad bearings in the S54.
What's sad is, they didn't learn anything with those engines blowing up.


Back on topic. Waiting on the group buy info.
.

[5soko]

Originally Posted by jav_au

Are these on sale now? I see one seller has them as in Stock and ready for shipping? Which reseller is going to distribute internationally? Also can somebody tell me which arp bolts I should be buying to use with these as I have heard there is more than 1 type? Cheers.

Fast attack motorsports is doing international shipping

[Rich150001]

Originally Posted by aus

Lets not forget BMW has a precedent with bad bearings in the S54.
What's sad is, they didn't learn anything with those engines blowing up.


Back on topic. Waiting on the group buy info.
.

+1 also curious what the pricing will look like with a group buy

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by aus

Lets not forget BMW has a precedent with bad bearings in the S54.
What's sad is, they didn't learn anything with those engines blowing up.


Back on topic. Waiting on the group buy info.
.

The s54 bearings were a production defect (in 01 and 02 only, all since recalled and replaced) by the bearing supplier, not a design fault.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

I still wonder why you won't recognize the 0.001" per inch of journal diameter clearance rule that many manufacturers, engine builders and engineers have recommended/used for years?

It is a RULE OF THUMB for a basic/crude/starting analysis. What you quoted also is not the full/actual rule of thumb. There is a range and additional value that may be added. Did you forget that and make the rule even more overly simplisitic than it already is?

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

I also wonder why you feel the S65 is different and shouldn't use this number?

Different clearly isn't always or necessarily wrong. However, doing something based of a coarse rule of thumb without sufficient understanding of the significant engineering subtleties can easily be a recipie for disaster. All of th folks involved in this literally don't even know what they don't know. There is so much more that goes into proper bearing design than a rule of thumb.

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Finally I wonder why you feel there is no issue with the S65 when the pictures/posts of bearings and failures are right here?

Beating the dead horse. I've never claimed that no S65s have exhibited failed bearings. However, the numbers are clearly low and many of the cars have been modified. These are very relevant points.

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

All is trying to be done with these bearings is bring the S65 into the same spec as what the majority of engines are assembled to and go from there. There is no experimental, or outlandish things being suggested here, on the contrary, the S65 will conform with best practices of the industry after these bearings are installed.

Like I mentioned above, one may be able to more or less guess the "right answer" here. It is simply my nature to want to be right for the right reasons with some reasonable best in class efforts used to justify choices about an absolutely critical component at the heart of our engines.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Obioban

The s54 bearings were a production defect (in 01 and 02 only, all since recalled and replaced) by the bearing supplier, not a design fault.

Although I don't doubt this was the case, I don't think it has been conclusively proven as what happened with the S54. Either way you slice it though the S54 bearing situation was very different than the S65 situation.

Also, a modern vehicle is made from the components of hundreds or thousands of suppliers. At some point the OEM must be accountable for everything going in to the vehicle, manufactured to specification or not...

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by FazerBoy

It's very simple. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy these bearings. If you don't agree with the methodology or conclusions you should politely put forward your own views and theories as part of the discussion and in a constructive manner. Otherwise just go away and do your own thing.

Exactly what I have done all along. My cordial and factual replies then garner terrible decorum, insults and some serious insecurity driven responses.

[swamp2]

My only point was that folks here discussing credibility and qualifications and the qualification of you and your team have not at all been established (or if they have, there is nothing particularly credible). You both ridicule engineers but then turn right around and claim to be one. And not once will you share one iota of your credentials other than what I wrote in my post that got you so obviously riled up.

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

If you dont like them.....dont buy them. Simple
But whatever. I dont see you doing anything but sitting behind a computer. At least there are a few guys here that actually try to make a difference.
This is how much money I am making on this deal ...$0.00, everything that has been contributed to this point has been for the good of not only my car but to help others as well. Actually I am in the negative because we have been shipping parts back and forth across the country with my own money. If you are not interested in the results of the bearings move away from this thread and make your 100% assumptions somewhere else

More typical only the "doers" matter and not the thinkers. Again possibly being right but very well perhaps for the wrong reason represents a very risky proposition. Other appear to be comfortable with that. I'm not. At least not yet.

[jcolley]

Guess what the crank supplier to Dinan does on all their S65 and S85 cranks. They open the rod bearing clearance up. Guess what they do on every S65 and S85 OEM crank they weld repair. They open the rod bearing clearance up.

Guess what a 14k mile set of 702/703 bearings looked like that just came out of my S85. Shite. Zero modifications to the car. Absolutely religious warm-up until > 180F. Fuel from the same pump at the same Shell station on 93 octane for 18 months. They looked as bad as the 65k mile bearings that came out in 2013.

I don't care if the guys who put these together finished high school or have 7 PhDs from MIT. They're providing a product which opens the clearance up the same as a custom stroker crank. I'm sure the guys who build those do so for a reason.

Can we ask how many S65 and S85 engines you've taken apart and rebuilt? I don't know about you, but if I see accelerated wear on 100% of the engines I've personally taken apart, I don't consider it "rare".

[aus]

While the number of engine failures is pretty low... as far as we know. Who knows how many more have blown out there that aren't posted here.

What got me concerned is all the people who changed out their bearings. Overwhelmingly, they almost all had premature wear. There's a handful with decent wear, but most show a lot more wear than expected. At least that's the case in all the threads I clicked.
.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by swamp2

My only point was that folks here discussing credibility and qualifications and the qualification of you and your team have not at all been established (or if they have, there is nothing particularly credible). You both ridicule engineers but then turn right around and claim to be one. And not once will you share one iota of your credentials other than what I wrote in my post that got you so obviously riled up.



More typical only the "doers" matter and not the thinkers. Again possibly being right but very well perhaps for the wrong reason represents a very risky proposition. Other appear to be comfortable with that. I'm not. At least not yet.

Are you still talking, because nobody cares

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by jcolley

Guess what the crank supplier to Dinan does on all their S65 and S85 cranks. They open the rod bearing clearance up. Guess what they do on every S65 and S85 OEM crank they weld repair. They open the rod bearing clearance up.

Guess what a 14k mile set of 702/703 bearings looked like that just came out of my S85. Shite. Zero modifications to the car. Absolutely religious warm-up until > 180F. Fuel from the same pump at the same Shell station on 93 octane for 18 months. They looked as bad as the 65k mile bearings that came out in 2013.

I don't care if the guys who put these together finished high school or have 7 PhDs from MIT. They're providing a product which opens the clearance up the same as a custom stroker crank. I'm sure the guys who build those do so for a reason.

Can we ask how many S65 and S85 engines you've taken apart and rebuilt? I don't know about you, but if I see accelerated wear on 100% of the engines I've personally taken apart, I don't consider it "rare".

Yep, we could spend perhaps $500k and do an exhaustive theoretical analysis coupled with carefully controlled lab tests of S85 and S65 engines coupled with on road testing and dyno testing lasting many thousands of miles equivalent....or we can do what Dinan does on 100% of their engine rebuilds/storkers and what some of the best engine builders/designers understand to be correct. While the exhaustive engineering analysis and lab testing surely might be fun and interesting (if anyone is doing this, I'll send in my credentials and we can form a team as I'll take any chance for a sabbatical from running my business for a while ), hoping for such a resolution/understanding from posting a desire on a forum is beyond a waste of time. At the very least, all such hopes/discussion should be taken to another thread instead of muddying the waters within other bearing threads with FUD.

Jim,

Offhand, I get the "impression" that the S85 is "worse" than the S65 on bearings. Granted this gut response is only based on the condition of bearings pulled from S85s which almost without exception seem to be more worn per unit mile than comparable S65 examples posted (some of which have been apart with little serious wear for example which I don't think I've ever seen on the S85). Plus the S85 allowed a business to be formed supplying engines from wrecked cars (initially), and I believe the business owner now does a bearing replacement on 100% of the used engines he supplies due to issues with the used engines. Thoughts?

Chuck

Speaking of

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Jim,

Offhand, I get the "impression" that the S85 is "worse" than the S65 on bearings. Granted this gut response is only based on the condition of bearings pulled from S85s which almost without exception seem to be more worn per unit mile than comparable S65 examples posted (some of which have been apart with little serious wear for example which I don't think I've ever seen on the S85). Plus the S85 allowed a business to be formed supplying engines from wrecked cars (initially), and I believe the business owner now does a bearing replacement on 100% of the used engines he supplies due to issues with the used engines. Thoughts?

Chuck

Speaking of

Last I spoke with him, he was not selling any engines he had not actually done a rebuild on. He no longer purchases salvage vehicles and sold off all his inventory (close to 25 cars worth) of E6x parts. He now operates solely as an engine rebuilder and engine parts supplier, having rebuilt close to 180 S85s in two years, a smattering of S65s, and even an Alpina B7 N63 which hydrolocked due to water ingestion and required significant one-off parts machining. All of the engines he sells now are rebuilt from cores (when the blocks don't have extra ventilation) and have had the cranks repaired, ground, and hardened. I never thought to ask the details of his crank modifications to know if he had them ground/polished undersize slightly, but I do recall he mentioned they are further hardened. I'm going to guess he's actually quite thankful this is such a "rare" problem at $10k a pop.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Jim,

Offhand, I get the "impression" that the S85 is "worse" than the S65 on bearings. Granted this gut response is only based on the condition of bearings pulled from S85s which almost without exception seem to be more worn per unit mile than comparable S65 examples posted (some of which have been apart with little serious wear for example which I don't think I've ever seen on the S85). Plus the S85 allowed a business to be formed supplying engines from wrecked cars (initially), and I believe the business owner now does a bearing replacement on 100% of the used engines he supplies due to issues with the used engines. Thoughts?

Chuck

Speaking of

I think you are right, I have torn down 3 s85 now and the bearings I have seen look worse than comparable s65. I am not real up on the oiling scheme for the 85 but have been getting more calls about bearing replacements on that platform. I dont hang on the m5 board but it seems they are having even more issues.

[FazerBoy]

What kind of bolts will BE Bearings be recommending to use with these bearings - stock or ARP?

[jav_au]

^^^ this. Really want to know if the issues with potential out of round with arp 625 bolts is real and we should stick to oem bolts even though they take longer to install?

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by FazerBoy

What kind of bolts will BE Bearings be recommending to use with these bearings - stock or ARP?

Originally Posted by jav_au

^^^ this. Really want to know if the issues with potential out of round with arp 625 bolts is real and we should stick to oem bolts even though they take longer to install?

I recommend the OEM bolts, the out of round is real with the arp bolts. The only advantage of the arp is that it can be reused. Because the oem is torque to yield it provides more clamp force than any of the arp bolts.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Although I don't doubt this was the case, I don't think it has been conclusively proven as what happened with the S54. Either way you slice it though the S54 bearing situation was very different than the S65 situation.

Also, a modern vehicle is made from the components of hundreds or thousands of suppliers. At some point the OEM must be accountable for everything going in to the vehicle, manufactured to specification or not...

Well, that was what BMW stated. It would be a bold move for them to lie about it...