Big LSD Shootout... OS Giken, Drexler, Titan, GKN, ZF...

[changster]

Thank you M3SQRD omgzirra_exe driftflo !

I've ordered the GT Race with the 3.46 FD! Woohoo can't wait.

omgzirra_exe Since you know exactly the roads and track I drive on here you advice also carries extra weight... hah. I took Alex from Sub2 out last month doing the mountain runs in the 1M (he drove). He gave me some feedback as well which aligns with yours.

For the rear tires I'm on 295/30/18's currently but my plan is to start playing with squared setups soon so I will keep that in mind. The RE71-RS and Nankang CR-S are readily available here and come in all the sizes for this car (275, 285, 295 in 30/35 aspect ratios). I will play with them in due time.

Thanks again!

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by changster

Thank you M3SQRD omgzirra_exe driftflo !

I've ordered the GT Race with the 3.46 FD! Woohoo can't wait.

omgzirra_exe Since you know exactly the roads and track I drive on here you advice also carries extra weight... hah. I took Alex from Sub2 out last month doing the mountain runs in the 1M (he drove). He gave me some feedback as well which aligns with yours.

For the rear tires I'm on 295/30/18's currently but my plan is to start playing with squared setups soon so I will keep that in mind. The RE71-RS and Nankang CR-S are readily available here and come in all the sizes for this car (275, 285, 295 in 30/35 aspect ratios). I will play with them in due time.

Thanks again!

yeah Alex is a wealth of knowledge! i trust what he tells you.

although different chassis, I've experimented with 295sq on my car and unless i went back to the OEM FD i didn't like it. accerlation felt so bad. 285/30/18 with a 3.62 has been my sweet spot, but keep in mind i have a 4.4L, quaife ATB diff (street car).

not sure how this would behave on a 1M, but we'll find out eventually from you... haha

i really miss taiwan/china, i need to make some time to travel again especially to see my in laws on mainland.

[nycplumber]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

yeah Alex is a wealth of knowledge! i trust what he tells you.

although different chassis, I've experimented with 295sq on my car and unless i went back to the OEM FD i didn't like it. accerlation felt so bad. 285/30/18 with a 3.62 has been my sweet spot, but keep in mind i have a 4.4L, quaife ATB diff (street car).

not sure how this would behave on a 1M, but we'll find out eventually from you... haha

i really miss taiwan/china, i need to make some time to travel again especially to see my in laws on mainland.

How do you like the quaife? I'm gonna go 3.62 but don't want to do m differential but also don't want to drop $7000 on a LSD for a car that doesn't see much track time

[CTMike]

Don’t have much to add - just want to say this is one of my favorite, most informative threads on M3Post. So much knowledge gained… shoutout driftflo , I had reached out inquiring about an LSD, he was super patient and friendly with all of my questions… still on my wish list some day but addressing other priorities right now.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by nycplumber

How do you like the quaife? I'm gonna go 3.62 but don't want to do m differential but also don't want to drop $7000 on a LSD for a car that doesn't see much track time

i just think its very street friendly with how it works, by sending power to the most wheel with the the most grip vs like a 1.5way clutch base which uses i think a 35/60 ramp?

it's probably best to ask driftflo as my purchase for the ATB was more on the "fuck it" side before i knew anything about other diff set ups. but i have no complaints. the ATB does allow me to feel confident in putting power down and it's not noisy on the street what's so ever.

i do note when driving during SoCal "rain storms" i had no issue fighting traction other than me suffering due to using 200TW tires as a daily.. lol so it was helpful in the rain that's for sure.

budget wise nycplumber

For comparison, the Upgraded ZF LSD from a E34 M5 is another solid option with 60% lock, 30/60 ramp angles, and a 3.64 gear ratio.

which can be had for like $3k USD shipped from Europe.

[driftflo]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

... vs like a 1.5way clutch base which uses i think a 35/60 ramp?

"1.5way" only means it has different lockup values for power and coast!
you can build a 1.5 way lsd with any ramps you want (or your diffbuilder has in stock).

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

but i have no complaints. the ATB does allow me to feel confident in putting power down and it's not noisy on the street what's so ever.

the torsen style units are "good". they are a lot better then the oem lsd!
but a proper clutch type unit (maybe not with 30 or 35° ramps that i definitely would not recommend using) is way better! and you will feel this difference in direct comparison easily.

this is a bit like owning a 318i and then upgrade to a 330i. few will complain about this upgrade... until they drive a m3!

this describes the situation with oem lsd, torsen, and a (properly set) clutch type unit. so it would be best to ask someone who drove the 330i vs. the m3 (or in our case: torsen vs. clutch).

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

For comparison, the Upgraded ZF LSD from a E34 M5 is another solid option with 60% lock, 30/60 ramp angles, and a 3.64 gear ratio.

which can be had for like $3k USD shipped from Europe.

i definitely would not recommend this setup! choosing the "correct" ramps is very important... as is the choice of friction material (clutches). there are big differences, i.e. between the original drexler friction discs and aftermarket "replica" parts. so lets say a clutch type lsd is like a semi slick tire (both are, in general, a good idea for a car like the m3). but depending on the rubber compound, profile, manufacturer... there are big differences between the different semislick tires out there.
and this is the same with a clutch type lsd, a device that houses a lot of different parts that need to perfectly match together and perform on a very high mechanical level (if looking at the 4-digit input torques that it has to handle). so be aware to not just compare "oem vs. clutch type" or "torsen vs. clutch type" but also "clutch type a vs. clutch type b".

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by driftflo

"1.5way" only means it has different lockup values for power and coast!
you can build a 1.5 way lsd with any ramps you want (or your diffbuilder has in stock).





the torsen style units are "good". they are a lot better then the oem lsd!
but a proper clutch type unit (maybe not with 30 or 35° ramps that i definitely would not recommend using) is way better! and you will feel this difference in direct comparison easily.

this is a bit like owning a 318i and then upgrade to a 330i. few will complain about this upgrade... until they drive a m3!

this describes the situation with oem lsd, torsen, and a (properly set) clutch type unit. so it would be best to ask someone who drove the 330i vs. the m3 (or in our case: torsen vs. clutch).





i definitely would not recommend this setup! choosing the "correct" ramps is very important... as is the choice of friction material (clutches). there are big differences, i.e. between the original drexler friction discs and aftermarket "replica" parts. so lets say a clutch type lsd is like a semi slick tire (both are, in general, a good idea for a car like the m3). but depending on the rubber compound, profile, manufacturer... there are big differences between the different semislick tires out there.
and this is the same with a clutch type lsd, a device that houses a lot of different parts that need to perfectly match together and perform on a very high mechanical level (if looking at the 4-digit input torques that it has to handle). so be aware to not just compare "oem vs. clutch type" or "torsen vs. clutch type" but also "clutch type a vs. clutch type b".

see this is why we love you driftflo

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

see this is why we love you driftflo

Yes, he’s definitely the LSD whisperer

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by driftflo

"1.5way" only means it has different lockup values for power and coast!
you can build a 1.5 way lsd with any ramps you want (or your diffbuilder has in stock).





the torsen style units are "good". they are a lot better then the oem lsd!
but a proper clutch type unit (maybe not with 30 or 35° ramps that i definitely would not recommend using) is way better! and you will feel this difference in direct comparison easily.

this is a bit like owning a 318i and then upgrade to a 330i. few will complain about this upgrade... until they drive a m3!

this describes the situation with oem lsd, torsen, and a (properly set) clutch type unit. so it would be best to ask someone who drove the 330i vs. the m3 (or in our case: torsen vs. clutch).





i definitely would not recommend this setup! choosing the "correct" ramps is very important... as is the choice of friction material (clutches). there are big differences, i.e. between the original drexler friction discs and aftermarket "replica" parts. so lets say a clutch type lsd is like a semi slick tire (both are, in general, a good idea for a car like the m3). but depending on the rubber compound, profile, manufacturer... there are big differences between the different semislick tires out there.
and this is the same with a clutch type lsd, a device that houses a lot of different parts that need to perfectly match together and perform on a very high mechanical level (if looking at the 4-digit input torques that it has to handle). so be aware to not just compare "oem vs. clutch type" or "torsen vs. clutch type" but also "clutch type a vs. clutch type b".

What exactly do you not recommend? 30° in acceleration or 60° in retention? Each person has a different driving style.

I would like to know exactly which one you do not recommend and why.

I hope it's not because Drexler doesn't make or sell those ramps

[Track/S]

driftflo I hope you're well!

[driftflo]

sorry, missed this post...
i am well indeed, but pretty busy... plus holidays...

... and also working on and developing new lsd stuff. carbon friction material, lightweight cores and the likes... more coming soon!

Originally Posted by Track/S

What exactly do you not recommend? 30° in acceleration or 60° in retention? Each person has a different driving style.

I would like to know exactly which one you do not recommend and why.

30° is something i would not build at all. this is an aggressive low budget/high pressure ramp. no driving style will want/need this.
think of a big old turbo with huge delay and massive torque explosion.
does not make sense concerning drivability. no one would build such an engine today (except straight line driven cars maybe)... development went on!
there is only one advantage for such a ramp: the diffbuilder can get/sell high lockup values with low parts costs... at the expense of drivability and durability.

Originally Posted by Track/S

I hope it's not because Drexler doesn't make or sell those ramps

if drexler does not make the ramps i want, i have them made these ramps for me ;-)
i have/sell a lot of rampsets that they do not have and manufacture exclusively for me... because i think i need them to build the perfect setups.

but i do not think i need a 30/60° rampset for a bespoke "limitedslip.de" m3 lsd.

talking about 30° ramps is pretty basic, very old school stuff tbh.
zf themselves went on to steeper ramps in the 90s already.

things move on in lsd development quickly in the last time. friction materials, oils, ... there is a lot of development going on to make things even better in various aspects. but as this is quite complicated and most people do not know and care about how this stuff works, nothing of this gets published/advertised.
i.e. the new 992 gen gt3rs features carbonfiber friction material. but not even porsche does advertise this in any way. but it adds a significant bit on how this car performs.

now i have these discs adapted to be fitted in my new lightweight e46/e92 lsd cores.
the first of these units are running perfectly already. i just did not have time to photo-shoot and advertise this stuff yet.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by driftflo

sorry, missed this post...
i am well indeed, but pretty busy... plus holidays...

... and also working on and developing new lsd stuff. carbon friction material, lightweight cores and the likes... more coming soon!




30° is something i would not build at all. this is an aggressive low budget/high pressure ramp. no driving style will want/need this.
think of a big old turbo with huge delay and massive torque explosion.
does not make sense concerning drivability. no one would build such an engine today (except straight line driven cars maybe)... development went on!
there is only one advantage for such a ramp: the diffbuilder can get/sell high lockup values with low parts costs... at the expense of drivability and durability.




if drexler does not make the ramps i want, i have them made these ramps for me ;-)
i have/sell a lot of rampsets that they do not have and manufacture exclusively for me... because i think i need them to build the perfect setups.

but i do not think i need a 30/60° rampset for a bespoke "limitedslip.de" m3 lsd.

talking about 30° ramps is pretty basic, very old school stuff tbh.
zf themselves went on to steeper ramps in the 90s already.

things move on in lsd development quickly in the last time. friction materials, oils, ... there is a lot of development going on to make things even better in various aspects. but as this is quite complicated and most people do not know and care about how this stuff works, nothing of this gets published/advertised.
i.e. the new 992 gen gt3rs features carbonfiber friction material. but not even porsche does advertise this in any way. but it adds a significant bit on how this car performs.

now i have these discs adapted to be fitted in my new lightweight e46/e92 lsd cores.
the first of these units are running perfectly already. i just did not have time to photo-shoot and advertise this stuff yet.

I sent you an email asking about 30°/60° lighweight ramps and you told me they don't exist. If they don't exist, how do you know that 30° in acceleration doesn't work?
I decided to make my own ramps to test various configurations. The Drexler diffs on the M2CSR and GT4 have configurations that are not correct in my opinion.

[driftflo]

Originally Posted by Track/S

I sent you an email asking about 30°/60° lighweight ramps and you told me they don't exist.

correct! lightweight 30/60° rings do not exist in my or drexler stock so far! as there are only a few lightweight versions available at all. non-lightweight versions of this set might exist, but i never bought/used them!

Originally Posted by Track/S

If they don't exist, how do you know that 30° in acceleration doesn't work?

because i know (and tried in the past) how a 30° ramp works/behaves! (no matter if the ring is a lightweight one or not)
in the end this is pretty basic physics... plus own first hand, real world experience.

Originally Posted by Track/S

The Drexler diffs on the M2CSR and GT4 have configurations that are not correct in my opinion.

i agree!

[FazerBoy]

Originally Posted by driftflo

be sure you will notice the upgrade immediately and quite a lot!
and all lsd cores and setups i offer are a big upgrade compared to the OEM lsd.
in the end it is "you get what you pay for"! the zf45 is a good low budget lsd core, but a drexler "gt race" (best for track, good for street) or "gt performance" (best for street, good for track) are delivering even more traction and rear end predictability while being noticably smoother in reaction and more durable... but you have some bucks more to spend initially.

in between is the drexler "performance"... all the drexler parts, more clutches then zf45 but less then the "gt" setups. so depending on budget get one of these and you will be happy... and feel the difference!!!

Hi,

Would the Drexler Performance kit be good for a street-driven 6mt E92 M3 with an ESS G1 supercharger? I do track days - but very rarely.

How do I get more details of pricing etc? I’m in the UK.

Jack

[driftflo]

jack,
yes... this would be a good choice for this car and application!
for more info, options and pricing just send me an email to service@limitedslip.de

[OmairK]

Which ramp angles would you recommend in the Drexler?

[driftflo]

Originally Posted by OmairK

Which ramp angles would you recommend in the Drexler?

mh well... did you read the thread a bit?!
i do not sell "the drexler" but various options and setups.

the "right ramp" depends on car setup, car usage, tires used... and it also depends very much on the clutch setup inside the drexler core! you will need completely different ramps in a 4cp setup compared to a 8cp version of the drexler.

so quoting some random ramp angles here does not make sense.

but everything below 40° is something i'd try to avoid in any case!

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by driftflo

but everything below 40° is something i'd try to avoid in any case!

I spoke today with a person who is active in the world of rallies and he told me that the m3 e30s that were world champions had 30°/50° ramps. I am going to try this configuration along with another 40°/70° one.

[m3s65b4.x]

Originally Posted by Track/S

I spoke today with a person who is active in the world of rallies and he told me that the m3 e30s that were world champions had 30°/50° ramps. I am going to try this configuration along with another 40°/70° one.

Please let us know when you go with 30-accl/ramp and impressions.
Remember those e21 323 days when zf lsd's had straight cut 45/45 ramps and only couple discs.
Now 50/60 setup with 8 clutch pack 70 lock/accl. This setup performs very well in street driving. Maybe little bit more agressive setup is better but anyway engine lack 100HP

Which setup is dream goal ultimate setup with those new light core LSD's, carbon baked discs and newly developed oils?

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by m3s65b4.x

Please let us know when you go with 30-accl/ramp and impressions.
Remember those e21 323 days when zf lsd's had straight cut 45/45 ramps and only couple discs.
Now 50/60 setup with 8 clutch pack 70 lock/accl. This setup performs very well in street driving. Maybe little bit more agressive setup is better but anyway engine lack 100HP

Which setup is dream goal ultimate setup with those new light core LSD's, carbon baked discs and newly developed oils?

I'm curious to know how the car will behave with 30 ramps in acceleration, so we'll know soon, I currently have 550hp and about 800nm ​​in an F87, in your second photo I see a 30/45 configuration, they are from Drexler, this means they work.

[driftflo]

Originally Posted by Track/S

... in your second photo I see a 30/45 configuration, they are from Drexler, this means they work.

the second picture is not from me! the lsd pictured there was not built by me!

i did not say it does not work. a m3 e30 also still works. but i doubt you will win any rallye with this car in nowadays. development goes on...

[driftflo]

Originally Posted by m3s65b4.x

Which setup is dream goal ultimate setup with those new light core LSD's, carbon baked discs and newly developed oils?

lightweight core
lightweight internals
special heat/hardening treatments
special surface treatments
needle bearings
carbon discs
custom ramps

...this is how a next gen clutch type lsd for e92 m3 looks like ;-)




so a 1989 m3 e30 is/was a great car for sure... but this is how a 992 gt3 lsd looks like nowadays... plus a bit more in this "ultimate" configuration pictured above adapted for the bmw e92 m3! (developed and exclusively available from limitedslip.de)