DRIVER DEVELOPMENT: Car Control (For those looking to improve their craft)

[Billj747]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq

Great read Billy, thanks for sharing. As far as seat time for learning car control, you didn't mention karting, which is also a great way to learn. You can develop quick hands fairly quickly in a kart. It may also save you the hassle of getting tossed from HPDE for being a yahoo.

Karting is a great tool but probably more ideal for practicing the under developed & refined car control ability. You can't really sustain slides in karts, they are 'twitchy', and do not have a sprung mass that flops around like a slow, lazy car. While karting has great benefits, it's probably not the best tool for learning car control in a sprung car.

[LiM3y]

M3?! Slow, lazy car?! Sprung mass flopping around?!

I can assure you, Sir, that there is only one sprung mass flopping around in my M3 and I have worked tirelessly on its slip angles!!!!!!

[Oh, hang on, that doesn't sound good at all!! ]

[dogbone]

Thanks for the article!

Regarding the topic of finding safe places to practice car control brought up in the article------if you're in SoCal, Willow Springs has a drift pad called the Balcony Skid Pad. Anyone can get a membership to the track (around $50) and then rent the skid pad (around $100) at any time. You can go on your own and do it safely without anyone around. I've rented it several times and learned a lot.

Other tracks around do stuff like that too. I've been to Sonoma Raceway's Drags and Drifts night. They do that every Wednesday. Super cheap.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by LiM3y

Is that "1moremod" in the silver E46 M3 on page #4?

(nice smilie!)

certainly not! that guy is off line and being passed by integras?

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

certainly not! that guy is off line and being passed by integras?

Haha. Here you go:

[PrimeBMW]

Originally Posted by LiM3y

M3?! Slow, lazy car?! Sprung mass flopping around?!

I can assure you, Sir, that there is only one sprung mass flopping around in my M3 and I have worked tirelessly on its slip angles!!!!!!

[Oh, hang on, that doesn't sound good at all!! ]

I know you are just joking around but if you ever have a chance to drive a fully race prepped BMW you will truly feel the stock M3 is um..........not as good as you thought originally. That is the polite way to say it.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

I know you are just joking around but if you ever have a chance to drive a fully race prepped BMW you will truly feel the stock M3 is um..........not as good as you thought originally. That is the polite way to say it.

Mines half ass compared to yours and illustrates the point to me.

[PrimeBMW]

Good feed back from Billy here. Keep the questions coming because he really is a wealth of knowledge and he is sharing for free.

If you want to improve find someone like Billy or hire him as you private coach. I have a private coach and it has helped my driving development tremendously. Nothing better than comparing telemetry, riding shot gun or even comparing GoPro plus telemetry. I did this on my last trip to Thunderhill and was up to speed quickly. (first time with a new car and third time ever)
BTW I hope to be calling you in the future for some private coaching

[1MOREMOD]

Good read billy. I'm a fairly fast underdeveloped driver is what I take away from that and need to make it a priority to develop more car control. I have crept up on the limit but rarely exceed it. I do work the car around quite a bit once I'm moving, it's just big oversteer moments that still spook me some.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

certainly not! that guy is off line and being passed by integras?

besides ONEMOREMOD drives with his feet on the steering wheel so tahst' obviously not him.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Thanks for the article!

Regarding the topic of finding safe places to practice car control brought up in the article------if you're in SoCal, Willow Springs has a drift pad called the Balcony Skid Pad. Anyone can get a membership to the track (around $50) and then rent the skid pad (around $100) at any time. You can go on your own and do it safely without anyone around. I've rented it several times and learned a lot.

Other tracks around do stuff like that too. I've been to Sonoma Raceway's Drags and Drifts night. They do that every Wednesday. Super cheap.

sounds good i need an area to just whip the car around as i am def an underdeveloped slowpoke.

[OC3]

^Most people work during weekdays, so can't make the drive up there to take advantage of that cheap rate and availability. And, most of the weekends are reserved by event organizers.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by OC3

^Most people work during weekdays, so can't make the drive up there to take advantage of that cheap rate and availability. And, most of the weekends are reserved by event organizers.

I would argue that there are quite a lot of people---especially in SoCal---who enjoy motorsport that have non-traditional schedules. I've gone to many organized weekday events that were heavily attended. There's a solid weekday audience.

Anyway, in SoCal with so many non-traditional schedules, I think it's very viable for people to hit Willow and practice. It's close. It's nice. It's pretty cheap.

Even if you have a regular schedule, it can be worth a day off in the summer to go work on some skills----maybe even hire an instructor to go and really focus.

C'mon OC3----you know how it is-----if you don't make the time, you never have the time!

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Billj747

Karting is a great tool but probably more ideal for practicing the under developed & refined car control ability. You can't really sustain slides in karts, they are 'twitchy', and do not have a sprung mass that flops around like a slow, lazy car. While karting has great benefits, it's probably not the best tool for learning car control in a sprung car.

Have you gone karting? Karting is the sure fire way to get to that expert level car control skills fast, because if you can't sustain that fine control of slip you can't go fast. Also karts don't have independent rear suspension, so most of the time, to go through slow corners fast you MUST initiate a chassis rotation.

On the other hand, high yaw angle recovery in a kart is much harder than in a car, and a simple spin means the difference between coming in first or last. There's a good reason some of the best drivers in the world started with karting.

I went karting with a friend who's a promature (drives for a semi-pro team) and I beat him handily by about a second a lap, because he's so used to the under-control type driving required with car racing.

Once he figured that out though, there was no catching him.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by dogbone

I would argue that there are quite a lot of people---especially in SoCal---who enjoy motorsport that have non-traditional schedules. I've gone to many organized weekday events that were heavily attended. There's a solid weekday audience.

Anyway, in SoCal with so many non-traditional schedules, I think it's very viable for people to hit Willow and practice. It's close. It's nice. It's pretty cheap.

Even if you have a regular schedule, it can be worth a day off in the summer to go work on some skills----maybe even hire an instructor to go and really focus.

C'mon OC3----you know how it is-----if you don't make the time, you never have the time!

Most of us (including SlowSaloonM3) are working stiff's, not independently wealthy like you buddy :P, nor are we trust fund babies spending daddy's money.

In any case, I practice while on the track. What better place?

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by OC3

Most of us (including SlowSaloonM3) are working stiff's, not independently wealthy like you buddy :P, nor are we trust fund babies spending daddy's money.

I'm not sure where you're going with these comments Randall…...C'mon, let's get back to the topic of driving! Who's up for Josh/Speed District on Saturday at Big Willow!!? I've asked Josh if he's cool if we do a "track walk" before the day starts. He says he's ok with it. I'm looking forward to standing at some of the corners and checking them out. I did my first track walk ever at Thunderhill recently and it was awesome. I've never stood on the track at either Big Willow or Buttonwillow. (I guess Buttonwillow will have to wait until the repave. I think a track walk will be very valuable there after the repave.)

[Billj747]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

Good feed back from Billy here. Keep the questions coming because he really is a wealth of knowledge and he is sharing for free.

If you want to improve find someone like Billy or hire him as you private coach. I have a private coach and it has helped my driving development tremendously. Nothing better than comparing telemetry, riding shot gun or even comparing GoPro plus telemetry. I did this on my last trip to Thunderhill and was up to speed quickly. (first time with a new car and third time ever)
BTW I hope to be calling you in the future for some private coaching

Agreed, especially if a driver's talent level surpasses the ability of the instructors that are available/around. Feel free to contact me anytime

Originally Posted by The HACK

Have you gone karting? Karting is the sure fire way to get to that expert level car control skills fast, because if you can't sustain that fine control of slip you can't go fast. Also karts don't have independent rear suspension, so most of the time, to go through slow corners fast you MUST initiate a chassis rotation.

On the other hand, high yaw angle recovery in a kart is much harder than in a car, and a simple spin means the difference between coming in first or last. There's a good reason some of the best drivers in the world started with karting.

I went karting with a friend who's a promature (drives for a semi-pro team) and I beat him handily by about a second a lap, because he's so used to the under-control type driving required with car racing.

Once he figured that out though, there was no catching him.

Yes, I started in karts and still feel that while karting is an invaluable tool, it's not ideal for learning car control in heavy cars since karts are proportionally equivalent to an F1 car, react instantaneously, and do not have a sprung chassis. Shifterkarts are even worse when compared to slow-responding, heavy, and lazy production cars.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by OC3

^Most people work during weekdays, so can't make the drive up there to take advantage of that cheap rate and availability. And, most of the weekends are reserved by event organizers.

i will take my 2 week vacation there lol. burn tires and then wait. there is nothing else to do there.

ill just demand a day off.

[Billj747]

Part 2 is now up:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1056896