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02-17-2011, 08:36 AM | #23 |
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Nice write up Swamp. OP, ignore every other post in this thread.
Can't believe how many clueless people feel the need to chime in on things they know nothing about. Doctor J, you got it right as well.
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02-17-2011, 08:42 AM | #24 |
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Several people have already mentioned it but a good NA engine will allow for very precise throttle modulation when you are at the track. Having a very smooth power delivery lets you get the absolute most you can out of your car in a turn.
This may change over the next 10 years as turbo technology improves (as everyone seems to be investing in it for fuel efficiency reasons) but as of right now, very few turbo setups can compete with a good NA engine in this category. Question to ask yourself, if turbo cars were always an upgrade, why is the Porsche GT3 considered a superior track car to the 911 turbo which has gobs more power?
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02-17-2011, 08:44 AM | #25 |
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Swamp pretty much summed it up.
Trottle modulation is the biggest advantage of NA. Technology keeps improving on FI and soon you won't be able to tell the difference Forget about the comments saying Horsepower and Torque are different, that is BS. Horsepower is a function of torque, you can't have one without the other.
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02-17-2011, 09:01 AM | #26 | |||
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False. Superchargers are also forced induction and have the same throttle response as NA setups.
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02-17-2011, 11:04 AM | #27 |
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Having owned a naturally aspirated E36 M3 with bolt on mods, then centrifugally supercharged, and now turbocharged, I definitely prefer the turbocharger. The centrifugal supercharger makes approximately the square root of peak boost at half peak rpm. Peak boost occurs only at redline. Thus at low to mid rpm, the supercharger adds very little power. You need to rev the engine to high rpm to make power, just like with a stock engine. With a reasonably sized turbo, you have massive torque in the midrange because peak boost is there and do not need to use as many rpm or as much throttle. For these same reasons, aftermarket turbo systems don't work as well on very high compression naturally aspirated engines like the S65 or the S62. All that boost in the midrange would blow the engine. The centrifugal supercharger, with its delayed response -- call that lag if you want -- is much safer for the high compression since there is so little boost in the midrange where cylinder pressure is highest.
I own an E61 535i with the N54 twin turbo engine. That is an incredible engine. Pulls like a V8 off the line. I find no discernable lag. I bought an E90 M3 because I wanted a newer car that handled great and was pretty fast that I would not have to mod to enjoy. But it is not a rocketship and the torque is not particularly satisfying. I will certainly be open minded about the next M3. |
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02-17-2011, 11:51 AM | #29 | ||
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However, and without rancor, I tend to disagree on a number of your pluses and minuses. I'll post in red. Quote:
Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 02-17-2011 at 11:58 AM.. |
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02-17-2011, 12:01 PM | #30 |
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Whether an engine has a turbo or not has nothing to do with whether it can rev to 8000 rpm. However, most of the high revving engines rev high because they have to in order to make decent power. Those high revs are unnecessary with a turbo since it makes so much power sooner. Generally, you won't find the two together -- high redline and turbocharger though there have been some examples over the years ( like the Japanese Domestic Market Subaru WRX STI).
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02-17-2011, 12:28 PM | #31 | |
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Alright guys, I'll take these 2 parts: Turbo cars actually could get better mileage than NA if comparing 2 cars with similar power. The driver can modulate the amount of boost you use when you accelerate. So turbo gives you the "best of both worlds" more power and better mileage if you have self control over your right foot. The idea is, if E9X M3 wanted 400hp with a turbo, they will go down to a 6 cyclinder turbo, and this could get better gas mileage than a NA V8. Why 414/295, it's about balance, the C63's power overwhelms the chassis. That's why the C63 can never beat the M3 on a road track. The traction control would have to be programmed properly to enable the best combo of slip and control. Drag racing sure, the C63 is king, but an retarded infant chimp could put his foot down and drive an high powered automatic in a straight line. The speed vs hp output is not linearly related as hp goes up, speed goes up but at a dimishing rate. |
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02-17-2011, 12:50 PM | #33 | ||
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So a Porsche Turbo is the poor man's way of achieving more power? How about a GTR? I don't think either of these are a "poor man's" car.. Also, AMG is going the Turbo route as well (I say as well because, as rumor holds it, the M3 will become a TT I6) I love NA engines. and I loved FI engines as well. I would love to take my S65 and s/c it.... I don't think there's anyone on there that would say no (if cost wasn't an issue) Quote:
and if I remember right, the suspension is also considerably different (sorry but I haven't followed Porsche must in the 997 era) Along with being RWD.
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02-17-2011, 01:00 PM | #34 |
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This is FI...
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02-17-2011, 01:00 PM | #35 |
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This is NA...
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02-17-2011, 01:09 PM | #36 |
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02-17-2011, 01:36 PM | #37 |
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^ Exactly.
The point is that they're both great. They both perform. It's just a matter of taste on which you prefer.
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02-17-2011, 02:36 PM | #38 |
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Reading this thread is like watching blindfolded cripple try to run down a flight of stairs.
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02-17-2011, 02:51 PM | #39 | |
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It was once stated on a Corvette Listserv (of all places) years ago and it was point on, quoted:
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02-17-2011, 03:06 PM | #40 | |
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Nurburgring Lap Times: E92 M3: 8:05 Cayman S: 8:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_times
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02-17-2011, 03:42 PM | #41 | |
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btw, the 'NA' pic looks a little 'FI' if you know what I mean.. I wonder what PSI she's running on those puppies hehe.. |
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02-17-2011, 04:07 PM | #42 | |||||
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2. Diminishing torque at high rpm is mitigated by rising rpms which give the M3 an almost perfectly linear hp curve. 3. You can certainly feel a falling hp curve typical in less efficient breathers such as Vettes. That must be sarcastic. The vast majority of M3 folks get less or significantly less than 20 mpg on the street. Quote:
In case you haven't noticed the M3 best competitors with more torque and hp on the track. Quote:
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If you have a turbo, don't really care which one, and you don't feel any lag at all then I must accuse you of not being perceptive enough.
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02-17-2011, 04:19 PM | #43 |
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I would love to drive a lotus around the track
I drove a couple in the canyons... and my god it's sex M3 is fun on the track but it's not dedicated track car.
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02-17-2011, 04:25 PM | #44 | |
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