Finally buying Rod Bearings and ARP bolts! Please Help!!!

[ThatWhiteM3]

Thank you for input guys just ordered BE bearings with BE-ARP bolts

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Todd0131

Would you go with the extra clearance bearings? I am about to pull the trigger on them.

The extra clearance ones are for cranks that have been ground

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by jcolley

Having done exactly this in my past career, this made me chuckle.

I mentioned it because everything is possible with enough effort, but why risk it?

[Todd0131]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The extra clearance ones are for cranks that have been ground

thank you sir

[Stronie]

Great Info. Thanks Y'all. ***Note Do your research...

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The biggest thing VAC has going for them is a shop who has done 'hundreds' of rod bearing jobs in a timeframe that averages two rod bearing jobs a week -cough cough- likes using them, or must be getting a sweet deal to use those bearings. I assume there is collusion between VAC and that shop because the body of evidence is so overwhelmingly against VAC that it really is mind blowing that someone uses them willingly.

Regardless, that some shop has managed to make drinking water out of nuclear sludge doesn't make me want to drink that water when I can go anywhere else and buy regular water.

In the end, do whatever you want. I don't work for BE or VAC, or anyone in the car business for that matter.

You're way out of line with those comments and insinuations.

VAC does not make bearings. The bearings (and hardware) that VAC sells are all made by third parties. In fact, they are made by the same third parties that "BE Bearings" recommends: Clevite (for the bearings) and ARP (for the bolts).

Among the many items VAC sells is Castrol 10w60. Are you really going to question the integrity of a shop that buys its Castrol 10w60 from VAC instead of someone else just because VAC might have customer service issues?

It's really ridiculous for a supposed adult to just sit back on a computer attacking the credibility and ethics of a shop that, in your estimation, is only guilty of buying Clevite bearings and ARP rod bolts from one supplier instead of another. The good name of shop that you are referencing was built with blood, sweat, and tears by a real person over a period of years. You should think about that before you so casually try to sling mud.

[XCUSE_M3]

Whats all the hate with VAC? I have been running there bearings for 30k miles with several track weekends and lots of autox. Main reason I went with them is I put clevite coated bearings in my mustang and have no issues with 800hp. I would think that if the bearing to journal is within spec there should be no issues.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Hujan

You're way out of line with those comments and insinuations.

VAC does not make bearings. The bearings (and hardware) that VAC sells are all made by third parties. In fact, they are made by the same third parties that "BE Bearings" recommends: Clevite (for the bearings) and ARP (for the bolts).

Among the many items VAC sells is Castrol 10w60. Are you really going to question the integrity of a shop that buys its Castrol 10w60 from VAC instead of someone else just because VAC might have customer service issues?

It's really ridiculous for a supposed adult to just sit back on a computer attacking the credibility and ethics of a shop that, in your estimation, is only guilty of buying Clevite bearings and ARP rod bolts from one supplier instead of another. The good name of shop that you are referencing was built with blood, sweat, and tears by a real person over a period of years. You should think about that before you so casually try to sling mud.

Hujan

I understand they don't make those bearings. They still specced them though, right? So they aren't just a reseller, they helped build/design/spec them.
A company that cannot ship a product reliably is unlikely to design it right. Perhaps this is why they've had several back and forths about what exactly their bearings do regarding clearance. No change? A little change? A lot of change?
Someone bothered to put the several conflicting statements from VAC onto a single post and it was pretty comical, however, I don't have a specific case with VAC and do not keep an XLS with all their screwups handy. Perhaps I should, as people seem blind to the overwhelming body of evidence against them.

That doesn't change that they've sent users of this forum at least two cases of wrong bearings that would have blown their engines had they been installed.

If a vendor has been shown to replace Castrol 10W60 with tanning oil then yeah, I would question why a shop wants to buy their oil from that source. Wouldn't you?

Finally, the 'good name' doesn't exist. Anyone with 10 minutes of patience, an internet connection, google and the ability to type 'VAC feedback' into their browser can clearly see who and what they are. Do you want me to post a compilation? It would be quite lengthy.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Hujan

You're way out of line with those comments and insinuations.

VAC does not make bearings. The bearings (and hardware) that VAC sells are all made by third parties. In fact, they are made by the same third parties that "BE Bearings" recommends: Clevite (for the bearings) and ARP (for the bolts).

Among the many items VAC sells is Castrol 10w60. Are you really going to question the integrity of a shop that buys its Castrol 10w60 from VAC instead of someone else just because VAC might have customer service issues?

It's really ridiculous for a supposed adult to just sit back on a computer attacking the credibility and ethics of a shop that, in your estimation, is only guilty of buying Clevite bearings and ARP rod bolts from one supplier instead of another. The good name of shop that you are referencing was built with blood, sweat, and tears by a real person over a period of years. You should think about that before you so casually try to sling mud.

Hujan

I understand they don't make those bearings. They still specced them though, right? So they aren't just a reseller, they helped build/design/spec them.
A company that cannot ship a product reliably is unlikely to design it right. Perhaps this is why they've had several back and forths about what exactly their bearings do regarding clearance. No change? A little change? A lot of change?
Someone bothered to put the several conflicting statements from VAC onto a single post and it was pretty comical, however, I don't have a specific case with VAC and do not keep an XLS with all their screwups handy. Perhaps I should, as people seem blind to the overwhelming body of evidence against them.

That doesn't change that they've sent users of this forum at least two cases of wrong bearings that would have blown their engines had they been installed.

If a vendor has been shown to replace Castrol 10W60 with tanning oil then yeah, I would question why a shop wants to buy their oil from that source. Wouldn't you?

Finally, the 'good name' doesn't exist. Anyone with 10 minutes of patience, an internet connection, google and the ability to type 'VAC feedback' into their browser can clearly see who and what they are. Do you want me to post a compilation? It would be quite lengthy.

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Hujan

I understand they don't make those bearings. They still specced them though, right? So they aren't just a reseller, they helped build/design/spec them.
A company that cannot ship a product reliably is unlikely to design it right. Perhaps this is why they've had several back and forths about what exactly their bearings do regarding clearance. No change? A little change? A lot of change?
Someone bothered to put the several conflicting statements from VAC onto a single post and it was pretty comical, however, I don't have a specific case with VAC and do not keep an XLS with all their screwups handy. Perhaps I should, as people seem blind to the overwhelming body of evidence against them.

That doesn't change that they've sent users of this forum at least two cases of wrong bearings that would have blown their engines had they been installed.

If a vendor has been shown to replace Castrol 10W60 with tanning oil then yeah, I would question why a shop wants to buy their oil from that source. Wouldn't you?

Finally, the 'good name' doesn't exist. Anyone with 10 minutes of patience, an internet connection, google and the ability to type 'VAC feedback' into their browser can clearly see who and what they are. Do you want me to post a compilation? It would be quite lengthy.

The "good name" I was referencing is the shop that gets their Clevite bearings from VAC that you referenced in your post. We both know who you are referencing.

The tanning oil hypothetical raises a good point: If a shop blindly threw whatever bearings and bolts they bought from any source, VAC or otherwise, into a car without first measuring to be sure they are correct, then that's just bad practice. How do you know the shop you referenced doesn't do its own QC to ensure that the VAC-supplied bearings are what they were represented to be? My point is that there are safeguards in place to make sure that the bearings and bolts that the shops get from VAC will work correctly.

The problem with your comments is that you are using one thing (VAC's allegedly bad customer service) as a proxy for a judgment about others (the quality of the Clevite bearings and ARP bolts that VAC bought from Clevite and ARP, respectively, AND the shops that bought those items from VAC). Why not just debate the merits of those other things (the hardware and the shops that use them) on their own terms instead of as an attenuated assumption based on VAC's customer service?

I just don't understand the desire to make a derogatory leap of logic about products (certain Clevite bearings and ARP bolts) and the shop(s) that use them simply because VAC appears to have shoddy customer service. It's quite a stretch and you offer it as though it were gospel when, let's be honest, your knowledge of the subject absolutely pales in comparison to the shop you are flaming by innuendo (not VAC).

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Hujan

The "good name" I was referencing is the shop that gets their Clevite bearings from VAC that you referenced in your post. We both know who you are referencing.

The tanning oil hypothetical raises a good point: If a shop blindly threw whatever bearings and bolts they bought from any source, VAC or otherwise, into a car without first measuring to be sure they are correct, then that's just bad practice. How do you know the shop you referenced doesn't do its own QC to ensure that the VAC-supplied bearings are what they were represented to be? My point is that there are safeguards in place to make sure that the bearings and bolts that the shops get from VAC will work correctly.

The problem with your comments is that you are using one thing (VAC's allegedly bad customer service) as a proxy for a judgment about others (the quality of the Clevite bearings and ARP bolts that VAC bought from Clevite and ARP, respectively, AND the shops that bought those items from VAC). Why not just debate the merits of those other things (the hardware and the shops that use them) on their own terms instead of as an attenuated assumption based on VAC's customer service?

I just don't understand the desire to make a derogatory leap of logic about products (certain Clevite bearings and ARP bolts) and the shop(s) that use them simply because VAC appears to have shoddy customer service. It's quite a stretch and you offer it as though it were gospel when, let's be honest, your knowledge of the subject absolutely pales in comparison to the shop you are flaming by innuendo (not VAC).

Note that the shop hasn't been mentioned by name. I did say 'the best thing they've got going for them is...' which is kind of a compliment, wouldn't you say?

In the nuclear waste example, 'that shop' is the one that turns nuclear waste into drinking water, again, not derogatory.
I believe that shop does do their QA and looks at the basics any shop *should* do before installing them: check out the parting lines and the shell numbers as well as the clearance once assembled.

Again, 'that shop' is the only thing VAC has going for them in this forum and it's a powerful tool, which is why VAC supplied bearings are even considered here.

This doesn't change that OP asked about which bearings to buy in general. I answered. He never mentioned going to 'that shop' to get them installed, so I can presume he will either DIY or have a random place install them who may or may not do the appropriate checking.

Who passed judgement of quality to ARP and Clevite?
Clevite's quality is well established.
ARP's is as well, however, about ARP you'd have to mention that they've been shown to distort the caps in two M engines so far: the S54 and the S65. The S54 data came our years ago and is completely unrelated to current events. That's why in the S54 DIY for rod bearings I did on the other forum I used OEM bolts.
Clevite's quality, however, gets thrown out the window if the shop that sells this stuff, VAC, doesn't do their quality control on the parts and sand parting lines and make sure each set they sell is actually a set, not all tops or all bottoms or a random mix of shells.

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The biggest thing VAC has going for them is a shop who has done 'hundreds' of rod bearing jobs in a timeframe that averages two rod bearing jobs a week -cough cough- likes using them, or must be getting a sweet deal to use those bearings. I assume there is collusion between VAC and that shop because the body of evidence is so overwhelmingly against VAC that it really is mind blowing that someone uses them willingly.

I'm pretty sure I just had a customer use said shop to install BE bearings and BE/ARP bolts I sold them and they refused telling the customer the bearings were not "up to spec". I gladly offered a refund on return. Curiously enough,
the bearings measured exactly as expected with my Sunnen bore gage when the BE/ARP bolts were torqued down to spec for an S85 I'm building up.

In the words of W. Edwards Deming, "Without data you're just another person with an opinion".

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by jcolley

I'm pretty sure I just had a customer use said shop to install BE bearings and BE/ARP bolts I sold them and they refused telling the customer the bearings were not "up to spec". I gladly offered a refund on return. Curiously enough,
the bearings measured exactly as expected with my Sunnen bore gage when the BE/ARP bolts were torqued down to spec for an S85 I'm building up.

In the words of W. Edwards Deming, "Without data you're just another person with an opinion".

Yes, I heard of that too and it's really a shame. One thing is to have a preference for a certain vendor but it's different to refuse to use something else which has a ton of data behind it is quite suspicious

[BimmerAffair]

Originally Posted by jcolley

I'm pretty sure I just had a customer use said shop to install BE bearings and BE/ARP bolts I sold them and they refused telling the customer the bearings were not "up to spec". I gladly offered a refund on return. Curiously enough,
the bearings measured exactly as expected with my Sunnen bore gage when the BE/ARP bolts were torqued down to spec for an S85 I'm building up.

In the words of W. Edwards Deming, "Without data you're just another person with an opinion".

There can be no other reason than money, for a shop to refuse to install a product that, so far has the best data and customer service. For anyone that is not blinded by a certain shop, you can easily see that BE offers overwhelmingly better data and customer service. If i were in southern California i, would not take my car to a shop that blatantly lies about BE being "not up to spec".

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by BimmerAffair

There can be no other reason than money, for a shop to refuse to install a product that, so far has the best data and customer service. For anyone that is not blinded by a certain shop, you can easily see that BE offers overwhelmingly better data and customer service. If i were in southern California i, would not take my car to a shop that blatantly lies about BE being "not up to spec".

It would certainly be difficult to understand.

Remember that VAC has flip flopped multiple times about what exactly those bearings are or do. They don't even publish a spec. For someone to say BE doesn't 'meet the spec' is just jaw dropping

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

It would certainly be difficult to understand.

Remember that VAC has flipped flopped multiple times about what exactly those bearings are or do. They don't even publish a spec. For someone to say BE doesn't 'meet the spec' is just jaw dropping

I have 3 sets of VAC coated bearings I purchased about 6 months ago that I use for engine builds where I have ground an extra .0005" on the crank for oil clearance. I supposed I could torque them up in the same rods with the same BE/ARP bolts and measure them.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by jcolley

I have 3 sets of VAC coated bearings I purchased about 6 months ago that I use for engine builds where I have ground an extra .0005" on the crank for oil clearance. I supposed I could torque them up in the same rods with the same BE/ARP bolts and measure them.

Slightly off topic, but I'm curious about whether you have ever hardened the crank after grinding journals, or if you think it's needed?

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Slightly off topic, but I'm curious about whether you have ever hardened the crank after grinding journals, or if you think it's needed?

Always, every single one.

Normally it's a grind/weld build-up/grind/polish/harden from a spun bearing, but I have a few that were broken valve spring motors that I only had ground and hardened.

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by ham_sammich

VAC is just a company that supplies Calico Coated Rod bearings and ARP hardware.
ESS is just a company that supplies Calico Coated Rod bearings and ARP hardware.
(I'm sure there are other third party companies doing the same)

BE bearings "made" their own bearing to spec, and bolts to spec.... Which, if you believe them fixes the bearing wear problem do their conclusion of poor oil clearance.

My observations don't lead me to believe its a clearance problem specifically. Looking at how the bearings wear, I believe it's legit bearing fatigue. If it was a clearance problem from assembly, the wear would be WAY more wide spread, and not focused in consistent, specific spots on the bearing surface. I've seen two different scenarios.

1. Bearing wear focused on the top bearing, centered, and slightly past TDC on the bearing surface- Caused by excessive pressure on the power stroke, generally due to poor ignition timing control, low fuel octane, or both connected with high compression engines.

2. Bearing wear at the parting lines, and on the edges of the bearings- Caused by bearing crush during assembly, potentially over torqued bolts, or outer bearing diameter larger than rod journal inner diameter which causes the ends of the bearings to crush together during assembly.

However, I've check for bore distortion with Calico bearings and OEM hardware, and when torqued properly, to spec, the OEM bolts did not distort the rod end diameter. ( not measurable distortion with a metric micrometer.)

I've installed both, BE and Calico, and honestly cannot tell one from the other. Both do the same job and address the same problem.

( For transparency sake, Im running Calico coated 702/703 bearings and OEM rod bolts, 22k+ miles (112K on the engine) and still going strong.)

Pick what you feel the most comfortable with, and move on. Bashing companies because of the biased crap you read on forums is faulted logic.

When you say that OEM bolts do not distort the bore, what do you mean by that? Are you saying that you can't see changes in concentricity vs. ovality? What are you measuring this with? I can see an absolutely repeatable change in ovality as I torque the OEM bolts on the 3rd pull. At around 100-105 degrees I usually see the closest reading to concentric, but continuing on to the spec of 130 degrees goes back slightly oval again.

This is measured using a Sunnen GA-2125, referenced against the CF-1126 calibration ring.

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand your statement.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by ham_sammich

could be the difference in technique. I use a t-gauge and a micrometer. I find this method to be more accurate and consistent.

A T-gauge and micrometer will never be as accurate as a true dial bore gauge, and the Sunnen 2125 is one of the most accurate you can buy.

[jcolley]

Originally Posted by ham_sammich

I disagree. While that is a very accurate tool, it has it's draw backs.

Dial bore gauges are dependent on the user keeping the stylus perfectly perpendicular to the surface. t-gauge allows you away to check and confirm measurement perpendicularity to the bearing surface. dial bore gauges is faster, but not more accurate. when measuring to the ten-thousandth of an inch, the dial bore gauge is not the way to go. 100%.

we can debate technique all day, at the end of it, my measurements (down to the micrometer scale) did not show bore distortion when OEM bolts were used.

All of us who bore and hone cylinders must be doing it wrong then.

Proper measurement of any bore internal diameter requires having the tips perpendicular to the bore walls. With a t-gage indicator, how do you know for certain you are perpendicular without removing and using the micrometer repeatedly until you get the minimum value? With a 3 point bore gage, you can rock it slightly and visually see when the minimum value is reached.

Every single measurement I make with the Sunnen gage is accurate and repeatable to .0001" every single time and I can even see the effects of a 5 degree temperature change in the room. That's the only reason its expense is remotely justifiable. That and being able to reach all the way in from either end and measure the main line bores.

I have several sets of t gages that I use from both Mitotoyo and Starrett, but only when it's impossible to get a dial bore gage in place (not very often, usually bore diameters under 15mm)

[SaltyNC]

Jcolley,

I'm going to be doing rod bearings soon on an S54 in a Z4M. The BE bearing solution wasn't well known in our community, but it sounds like a good alternative to the WPC option. In reading the M3 forums, I mistakenly thought BE had BE-ARP bolts for the S54 like they have for the S65, so the topic you are discussing now about distortion is back front and center. I need to make the choice to use OEM bolts on the S54 and the more involved torquing procedure, or go with standard ARP-2000 bolts on the S54.

After reading your post about OEM bolts distorting, is it safe to say the ARP bolts for the S54 (2003+) are safe to use? I know many discounted the ARP bolts for the S54 due to bore distortion. I'd rather not have to deal with the extended torquing procedure of the OEM bolts if I don't have to. What are your thoughts?

Thanks so much.

Salty