Ford Mustang is the world's best-selling sports car

[REV1]

Originally Posted by Billj747

Then be happy with your car. When you're the benchmark (M3, Porsche Turbo), you have a target on your back that others will pride themselves in being close to or beating (Mustang, C63, ATS-V, and GTR respectively).

Have pride in owning the benchmark and in most cases even if the benchmark is slower than a given contender, there's a lot of intangibles that make it the benchmark other than outright lap times.

The E92 M3 is an old car. A newer generation Mustang with more power and torque is faster, no matter how you look at it, that's a great accomplishment for Ford. Heck, a base 3 series is faster than an E36 M3 in a straight line. That's just progress.

Enjoy your car (which is a great car) and don't let marketing stuff bother you

Fair enough. The pressure is on all the manufactures to deliver
And that's great for all of us.

[New2Roundel]

Glad to see Ford doing well. Among the domestics, it's the company I like the most. It's also not a surprise that the Mustang sells well upon initial access to the world market. It's a legendary name and it's finally officially being sold in many markets outside of the US. I wonder if the car will still be doing well this time next year. Or if it's global sales will mirror the anecdotal evidence I've seen with the coyote powered s197s, in which the cars sold pretty well to people who never owned a mustang before and those people sold them off 2-3 years after purchase because they didn't care for them. I'm one of those people, but I know about 5-6 other people who did the same thing for the same reason. If nothing else, the seating position, even on the current car, is just not all that great compared with our cars. The mustang is a car that seems to drive at least as heavy as it is, which is the exact opposite to something like a BMW, which drives smaller/lighter than it is--especially as you drive it harder.

To me, that a car gets a faster lap time than something else really isn't all that important. It's cool to see where the various cars fit in with each other, but when it comes to actually buying something, I'd rather buy the more engaging product. What is it actually like to drive? How do I feel when I'm behind the wheel? Is the steering dead and the shifter a sloppy mess? What does it sound like? This is toss up, IMO, between the coyote and S65. I've never heard an S65 that sounds as good as a coyote with even a basic exhaust upgrade (GT500 muffler). OTOH, the S65 itself sounds much better than a coyote.

Although I really like the coyote motor, I'd still take an e9x over anything short of possibly a GT350 or even previous gen 13-14 GT500. But I don't see myself ever getting back into a Mustang GT. Nice enough cars, but just not for me.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by Ezio

whats funny is that most of the mustangs that are bought are v6 or v4 engine. Meaning that most people are just buying them for reasons other than performance.

But what ever the case, i am happy a US company has a great selling car.

No V4 engine...I4 Ecoboost.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by Z K

I think the majority of sales of the Mustang is going to come from overseas.

The Mustang hasn't been available overseas in a long time. There's a ton of built up demand for the car as people want something different. You'll rarely ever see a Mustang on the street outside of North America. Now all those people get a chance to own one.

I don't think so not with the VAT tax and such. Not to mention Ford has a pretty good hurdle to soothe the fears of Europeans that the Mustang is a rustbucket that can't handle worth a damm. Not my feelings, but I talk to quite a few friends and relatives and always have to tell them thats not the case with the S550.

Ford will sell 80% of the Mustangs here is the good ole USA>

Dave

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by Billj747

The 2015 GT with the Performance Package is faster around a track than an E9X M3. I find that to be pretty cool.

Billy what I find interesting is that the 2015 Mustang GT with PP is only .2 seconds faster than the last non ZCP 2009 M3 they tested at the Lightning Lap of America which also had issues with the DCT gearbox. I think the cars are pretty equal to be frank and will definitely be a drivers race. BTW, the Bos 302 LS ran it in 3:02.8 quite a bit faster than both the M3 and the S550. A lot of it can be the Pirelli Trofeo tires that were on the LS. I am still somewhat skeptical that the S550 was faster than the Boss 302..I have yet to see a comparison done, all I heard is what Ford said is the case.

It definitely is a victory for Ford though

[dcgolfdr]

Originally Posted by Haywood

That's true. Although I am happy for Ford, there are just a million on the road and they're not appealing to me. But, they have done some greats things with the upcoming GT350.

When my GT350 shows up I will give you a call.

[RG m3]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

Billy what I find interesting is that the 2015 Mustang GT with PP is only .2 seconds faster than the last non ZCP 2009 M3 they tested at the Lightning Lap of America which also had issues with the DCT gearbox. I think the cars are pretty equal to be frank and will definitely be a drivers race.

Don't forget that VIR has been modified and repaved since the e92 m3 was tested there and the track is probably grippier and faster today than it was back then. I'm not saying the Mustang wouldn't beat the e92 today, just saying that its not an apples to apples comparison. I'd like to see both cars on the same track, same day, same conditions, same driver. It won't happen, but it would be fun to see who would come out on top. I will say that, for the price, the Mustang GT delivers excellent performance. Kudos to Ford for the gt350 as it promises to be something special. The new Camaro will be interesting too, with lighter weight, better chassis and more power. The war rages on.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by RG m3

Don't forget that VIR has been modified and repaved since the e92 m3 was tested there and the track is probably grippier and faster today than it was back then. I'm not saying the Mustang wouldn't beat the e92 today, just saying that its not an apples to apples comparison. I'd like to see both cars on the same track, same day, same conditions, same driver. It won't happen, but it would be fun to see who would come out on top. I will say that, for the price, the Mustang GT delivers excellent performance. Kudos to Ford for the gt350 as it promises to be something special. The new Camaro will be interesting too, with lighter weight, better chassis and more power. The war rages on.

Oh I agree with this completely, but this is even more ammo to the argument that the S550 really isn't faster than the E92 M3 around VIR.


Dave

[Z K]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

I don't think so not with the VAT tax and such. Not to mention Ford has a pretty good hurdle to soothe the fears of Europeans that the Mustang is a rustbucket that can't handle worth a damm. Not my feelings, but I talk to quite a few friends and relatives and always have to tell them thats not the case with the S550.

Ford will sell 80% of the Mustangs here is the good ole USA>

Dave

Given that the top selling cars in the UK are Fords (#1 Fiesta and #3 Focus), I don't think people have a perception issue with the quality of Ford products - they outsell all competitors.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by Z K

Given that the top selling cars in the UK are Fords (#1 Fiesta and #3 Focus), I don't think people have a perception issue with the quality of Ford products - they outsell all competitors.

Thats Euro Fords, not US built Fords. Remember we are finally getting the Euro Fords here, the US built Focus pre 2012 was not even in the same league as the Euro Focus of today. I have quite a bit of friends who are car nuts and trust me, they are not enamored with the Ford Mustang. The only ones that are Mustang fans are in love with anything Americana. I do believe the S550 will change a lot of minds though for the fact they got away from the Fred Flintstone live rear axle.

Its not just the Ford Mustang, its pretty much any car made in the USA.

Dave

[TomHudson]

Always had a soft spot for Ford, since they didn't take bail out money...

Go Pony!!

[Haywood]

Originally Posted by dcgolfdr

When my GT350 shows up I will give you a call.

Please do! Would love to see it.

[ellekz]

I'm not really surprised. When I was in Miami (summer of 2013), not a minute has passed without a Mustang passing by (most of them were convertibles). Cheap "sports" car I assumed.

[dcgolfdr]

Originally Posted by ellekz

I'm not really surprised. When I was in Miami (summer of 2013), not a minute has passed without a Mustang passing by (most of them were convertibles). Cheap "sports" car I assumed.

Those are all the rental cars, they are cheap. On that note, in the DC area I see just as many entry level 3 series as Mustangs.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by dcgolfdr

Those are all the rental cars, they are cheap. On that note, in the DC area I see just as many entry level 3 series as Mustangs.

You should see LA, you can't throw a rock without hitting a BMW 3 series.

Dave

[Rat3d ///M]

Originally Posted by Billj747

The 2015 GTPP is faster than a Boss 302, which is faster than a E9X M3.

Cool? There is always going to be something faster than the M3. But i personally dont go for just any car because it earns the right to be called "fast". speed isnt everything to me. there are many cars faster than an M3 that I wouldnt touch and there are some cars slower than the M3 that I would consider.

My issue with the Mustang isnt so much the car, or the company, but the drivers themselves. Forgive me while I stereotype, but as a whole, Mustang owners are quite possibly the cockiest, biggest bunch of assholes on this planet. There is a local Muscle car club here, and I was invited by a buddy of mine who has a newer Mustang GT to one of their meets. he is a cool guy and likes all types of cars, and actually used to own an E46 M3 and was in the market for an E92 when he got the Mustang but didnt want to spend that much money. Most cars at said meet were Mustangs, and their owners rubbed me the wrong way from the moment I drove up. they were all pretty dismissive of anything that wasnt "'Murican Muscle" and basically ignored me the whole time. went to another one of their meets, and the same thing. Never again. I have observed the way they all talk on the forums they are on and they definitely fit the Mustang owner stereotype to a T.

I try to respect everyones car even if its not for me (and Mustangs just arent my cup of tea, but I keep it to myself). These assholes didnt respect anything. All they did was talk shit and talk about how amazing their cars were. I am good. Dont need to be a part of that. Ill stick with my "slow" M3 and remain humble.

[Billj747]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

Billy what I find interesting is that the 2015 Mustang GT with PP is only .2 seconds faster than the last non ZCP 2009 M3 they tested at the Lightning Lap of America which also had issues with the DCT gearbox. I think the cars are pretty equal to be frank and will definitely be a drivers race. BTW, the Bos 302 LS ran it in 3:02.8 quite a bit faster than both the M3 and the S550. A lot of it can be the Pirelli Trofeo tires that were on the LS. I am still somewhat skeptical that the S550 was faster than the Boss 302..I have yet to see a comparison done, all I heard is what Ford said is the case.

It definitely is a victory for Ford though

Since LL is performed by multiple people (journalists) of GREATLY varying driving experience and ability, its a crap shoot if two cars of equal performance get two different drivers, they can be seconds apart.

The fact that they don't use a pro, heck, they don't use the same journalist for all of the reviews, but rather split all the cars up for the official times makes LL so far from consistent or representative of any cars actual performance that I find their results useless.

For all magazine tests, if a car has new tires vs. One that has been driven on the street for hundreds of miles in a long term test, that variance can be second(S). Anyone who does HPDE events will know that their lap times in the first session of the morning can be second(S) faster than their times in the worst part of the day at 1-5pm.

Most magazines don't rush through to test all of their cars back to back for consistent weather conditions or tire life, and just recently have some started to not run doorjamb cold pressures (where they will get well over 40psi hot in a couple laps). Because of all of this, lap times can vary my multiple seconds from weather and tire conditions, let alone when you use different amateur drivers to test multiple cars like LL does.

While magazine tests are the only ammo for most people and especially bench racers, they are mostly flawwed and useles, and LL is one of the worst.

0.02

On the Mustang note, I've tracked a bunch of Boss', E92/0 M3s and 2015 GTPPs. I think Fords claims are true, just look at each car's power:weight:torque:tires, its not too hard to believe. Having tracked a bunch of cars in LL, their results are only representative and close for 1-2 of their (5?) Different drivers.

As far as car communities go, its a bit ironic when the stereotype is that BMW owners are pompous pricks. I think anyone can have a bad experience when they are a fish out of water in another car group, like a sporting fan wearing the wrong jersey... I think for the most part all car groups have their share of bad people bit for the most part have far more good people in them.

[jitenmazee]

I agreed with that.

[M3Bimmer77]

I have always said, "A nice sport car needs to have high performance and a great design". For me Mustangs lack the elegance of a great design interior and exterior. German cars like BMW do a great job on the design. Performance might be getting better but personally I hate the sequential rear turning signal and the whole rear of Mustangs. Not to mention the overall look of the car. The front is not that bad. Not because it sells more it means that it's better. Good for Ford. I hope it help to bring up the price of the stock!!!!

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by ||||||||||

Cool? There is always going to be something faster than the M3. But i personally dont go for just any car because it earns the right to be called "fast". speed isnt everything to me. there are many cars faster than an M3 that I wouldnt touch and there are some cars slower than the M3 that I would consider.

My issue with the Mustang isnt so much the car, or the company, but the drivers themselves. Forgive me while I stereotype, but as a whole, Mustang owners are quite possibly the cockiest, biggest bunch of assholes on this planet. There is a local Muscle car club here, and I was invited by a buddy of mine who has a newer Mustang GT to one of their meets. he is a cool guy and likes all types of cars, and actually used to own an E46 M3 and was in the market for an E92 when he got the Mustang but didnt want to spend that much money. Most cars at said meet were Mustangs, and their owners rubbed me the wrong way from the moment I drove up. they were all pretty dismissive of anything that wasnt "'Murican Muscle" and basically ignored me the whole time. went to another one of their meets, and the same thing. Never again. I have observed the way they all talk on the forums they are on and they definitely fit the Mustang owner stereotype to a T.

I try to respect everyones car even if its not for me (and Mustangs just arent my cup of tea, but I keep it to myself). These assholes didnt respect anything. All they did was talk shit and talk about how amazing their cars were. I am good. Dont need to be a part of that. Ill stick with my "slow" M3 and remain humble.

I would try to get over the stereotype thing when trying to buy a car. Most mustang drivers are not real car people. They are just buying a sporty good looking car anyways.

Yes there are those guys who are all about the muslce scene, and disregard other brands. But i am really glad to see the new 5.0L mustang is in fact slower in a straight than the last generation. So that now when you see them on the streets, they are smoking anyone.

My problem with the mustang is that is a low budget car. They start at like 22k. Why would i buy a mustang when i can afford to buy cars that cost over 60k ? sure a GT500 might be cool, but other than that no thanks.
I would rather drive a slower more expensive car.

[1MOREMOD]

Just overpay on a Prius then. Give em 60k and say keep the change.

[z3papa]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

Billy what I find interesting is that the 2015 Mustang GT with PP is only .2 seconds faster than the last non ZCP 2009 M3 they tested at the Lightning Lap of America which also had issues with the DCT gearbox. I think the cars are pretty equal to be frank and will definitely be a drivers race. BTW, the Bos 302 LS ran it in 3:02.8 quite a bit faster than both the M3 and the S550. A lot of it can be the Pirelli Trofeo tires that were on the LS. I am still somewhat skeptical that the S550 was faster than the Boss 302..I have yet to see a comparison done, all I heard is what Ford said is the case.

It definitely is a victory for Ford though

Originally Posted by RG m3

Don't forget that VIR has been modified and repaved since the e92 m3 was tested there and the track is probably grippier and faster today than it was back then. I'm not saying the Mustang wouldn't beat the e92 today, just saying that its not an apples to apples comparison. I'd like to see both cars on the same track, same day, same conditions, same driver. It won't happen, but it would be fun to see who would come out on top. I will say that, for the price, the Mustang GT delivers excellent performance. Kudos to Ford for the gt350 as it promises to be something special. The new Camaro will be interesting too, with lighter weight, better chassis and more power. The war rages on.

If it's any consolation, the 2015 Mustang GT PP guys are all crying foul over how they perceive the unfairness of having to compete with the ZCP M3 in SCCA F Street class and are on a letter writing campaign to get us kicked out. I'm certain no GT350 owner would have that opinion but it is telling of the new 2015 guys versus what is written.