Manual or DCT?

[timothy2001]

Originally Posted by OzCoE92

Keep the DCT, better options since it has the Competition Package and MPE already, that's a winner in my book!

6 MT here and I may have been a bit hasty in my choice. Comp package and MPE is a keeper.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

How much did you pay for your 2013 E92?

Also, the feel of driving a M3 6MT is a lot different than the feel of driving a 335 6MT.

In fact, it's estimated that a +70% of the M3 parts are different than the 335.

Don't confuse the guy now when he settled for the right side...😎

[sleestak]

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

How much did you pay for your 2013 E92?

Also, the feel of driving a M3 6MT is a lot different than the feel of driving a 335 6MT.

In fact, it's estimated that a +70% of the M3 parts are different than the 335.

I get that. I just needed a 6MT (something) in my garage so I settled for the 335i coupe (which also seems rare these days too). I don't disagree the parts are completely different between the two. I know that's true also.

[OzCoE92]

Originally Posted by timothy2001

6 MT here and I may have been a bit hasty in my choice. Comp package and MPE is a keeper.

I too debated between a DCT or Manual, I just settled on DCT for daily driving. Now if I can find an MPE for cheap, I'll be all set.

[jlo0109]

Originally Posted by Not Sure

there are 2 of you?? or have i just been trolled...

bite me.


#corrected.

[Ngilbe36]

I only have experience with half of the equation here as a 6MT owner, but I see absolutely no way to go wrong with one. If you were in excessive traffic everyday it might get old, but I drive mine to and from work when the weather is nice and even in southeastern Michigan traffic it is no problem. It is hard to replace that feeling of dropping the clutch at 3,500rpm letting it ride all the way to 8k and slamming it into 2nd...3rd...4th... you get it. Damn I love these cars.
On the other hand I have heard amazing things about the DCT.

[UPSROD]

Originally Posted by OzCoE92

I too debated between a DCT or Manual, I just settled on DCT for daily driving. Now if I can find an MPE for cheap, I'll be all set.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...hlight=MPE+V-1

[3Pedals_6Speeds]

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

When I was looking for my E93, I only considered 6MT b/c I don't plan on tracking it and driving a manual for a sports car makes you feel more involved.

This is me as well.

I agree that DCT's are faster around a track, better in arguably about every technical/mechanical way possible, but the involvement I feel in rowing it myself is something that (for me) is fundamental to the enjoyment.

YMMV.

[eg6turbo]

My two cents is to stay if your car is running great
..because even if both were exactly the same except for the transmission, you might pick up a car with some problems.

[Munichm3]

Who knows, maybe your car will have perfect rod bearings and the next one will kabloom on you when you pick it up

[MachinesWithSouls]

I have a 6MT. I've driven an F80 with both transmissions. The DCT is an amazing transmission. It will outpace the 6MT in every regard and make you feel like a driving hero.

I hate it.

I like the fact that the stick shakes a tiny bit. That I can rev it in neutral for my own enjoyment. That it's harder to drive.

People that say the DCT trans is the one to get with this engine but I'm not so sure. The engine is so visceral and raw. And here comes the DCT smoothing everything out and making you feel like you're in a video game. It's fun. It's cool. It's just not what I want on the back roads.

[Rajmun340]

You would not be the first to go from dct to manual. All those who made the switch have raved on how much it improved their experience and made them feel more connected to the car and engine and that they would never go back. Has anyone gone the other way (from 6mt to dct) ?
Nobody.

I think there is no debate, 6MT provides a lot more fun than dct if -and there is a big if- if you are willing to go through months of frustrations to learn the refinement of having a manual box on a high reving, fast falling rpm engine. I have driven manuals all my life and it took me quite a long time to absolutely master heel and toe shifting on the S65 + 6MT . But once you get there it's addicting shifting nirvana that dct can not compete with. I would caution that there are plenty of people who will remain at a low level of manual driving during their whole ownership, as the joy of 6MT is not a low hanging fruit. You can miss on what the 6MT has to offer if you don't step up your skills. Same goes to those people who take a 6MT M3 on a single roadtrip testdrive. The manual is a two edged sword, learn and perfect it and it's smooth, versatile, fun or only learn to use it at an average level and you will experience all that can be negative about a sensitive throttle with quickly falling rpm engine (due to a heavy duty flywheel that is rated higher torque than the dct) again this word of caution only applies to users that are not willing to learn or have poor body coordination : difficult shifts, tediousness in traffic, slow shifts, unability to rev match, etc..

The question is not is the manual gearbox good enough but are you willing to step up your skills up to the manual + S65 combination. Most people are not and dct remains the right alternative for them. But if you step up and are willing to learn it to perfection, it is the better choice and more rewarding experience without a doubt.

The manual 6MT + S65 feels more ferocious and visceral than the dct once you are heel and toeing it yourself versus having a computer and automated clutch engagement doing the works for you. To me the analogy would be like experiencing the thrills of going around the track with a computer taking over some aspects of driving or being fully at the command yourself which requires more skills but is always more rewarding.

The dct is known to have leak issues and is expensive to replace. A 6MT that was never abused by previous owner(s) or new (easier to abuse a 6MT due to more control over it than dual clutch) will be bullet proof.
The 6MT is a good 45 lbs lighter than the dct, that's twice the weight save from CF roof over non-CF metal roof. Not significant enough but also not negligible. I can not recall the numbers but the 6MT is rated at a higher max torque than the dct. For those who take the SC route it is another consideration.

36,516 dct M3 were produced versus 21,111 6MT but the used cars market has a much higher dct to 6MT M3 ratio, that tells you 6MT tend to keep their M3 more than dct owners. It also means that every other options being equal 6MT's gives the seller an edge when trying to sell near or at asking price.

There is a reason Porsche offers the GT3 with still a manual box option and another reason bmw has not adopted the dct in the 2018 M5 and instead went with a conventional automatic which is one step more in the wrong direction for car enthusiasts.

[GRUESOM3]

Here's another reason why manual

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...149902%2F&_rdr

[Megabrode]

Originally Posted by sleestak

...I think I'll just stick with my DCT...

In this car, a 6MT is a commitment. A DCT is a computer. If you're not unable-to-sleep miserable without a manual, you made the right choice.

[Munichm3]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

You would not be the first to go from dct to manual. All those who made the switch have raved on how much it improved their experience and made them feel more connected to the car and engine and that they would never go back. Has anyone gone the other way (from 6mt to dct) ?
Nobody.

I think there is no debate, 6MT provides a lot more fun than dct if -and there is a big if- if you are willing to go through months of frustrations to learn the refinement of having a manual box on a high reving, fast falling rpm engine. I have driven manuals all my life and it took me quite a long time to absolutely master heel and toe shifting on the S65 + 6MT . But once you get there it's addicting shifting nirvana that dct can not compete with. I would caution that there are plenty of people who will remain at a low level of manual driving during their whole ownership, as the joy of 6MT is not a low hanging fruit. You can miss on what the 6MT has to offer if you don't step up your skills. Same goes to those people who take a 6MT M3 on a single roadtrip testdrive. The manual is a two edged sword, learn and perfect it and it's smooth, versatile, fun or only learn to use it at an average level and you will experience all that can be negative about a sensitive throttle with quickly falling rpm engine (due to a heavy duty flywheel that is rated higher torque than the dct) again this word of caution only applies to users that are not willing to learn or have poor body coordination : difficult shifts, tediousness in traffic, slow shifts, unability to rev match, etc..

The question is not is the manual gearbox good enough but are you willing to step up your skills up to the manual + S65 combination. Most people are not and dct remains the right alternative for them. But if you step up and are willing to learn it to perfection, it is the better choice and more rewarding experience without a doubt.

The manual 6MT + S65 feels more ferocious and visceral than the dct once you are heel and toeing it yourself versus having a computer and automated clutch engagement doing the works for you. To me the analogy would be like experiencing the thrills of going around the track with a computer taking over some aspects of driving or being fully at the command yourself which requires more skills but is always more rewarding.

The dct is known to have leak issues and is expensive to replace. A 6MT that was never abused by previous owner(s) or new (easier to abuse a 6MT due to more control over it than dual clutch) will be bullet proof.
The 6MT is a good 45 lbs lighter than the dct, that's twice the weight save from CF roof over non-CF metal roof. Not significant enough but also not negligible. I can not recall the numbers but the 6MT is rated at a higher max torque than the dct. For those who take the SC route it is another consideration.

36,516 dct M3 were produced versus 21,111 6MT but the used cars market has a much higher dct to 6MT M3 ratio, that tells you 6MT tend to keep their M3 more than dct owners. It also means that every other options being equal 6MT's gives the seller an edge when trying to sell near or at asking price.

There is a reason Porsche offers the GT3 with still a manual box option and another reason bmw has not adopted the dct in the 2018 M5 and instead went with a conventional automatic which is one step more in the wrong direction for car enthusiasts.

Blah blah blah, let the man choose what he wants. Your claims on the DCT being unreliable is blatantly false. They're so reliable you can find the DCT transmission for under 2K because they're in very low demand.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1364250 One example of many

They outlast the 6MT clutch depending how you drive it, fun is dependent on the person. I prefer the DCT to be funner, practical, and reliable. It's sooo terrible to have a perfect downshift each time. Gosh, how terrible it is to be able to not have to worry about being stuck in traffic and constantly jerking the cars dick off.

Heavier than a manual? Big deal, lose the extra 45LB off your belly.

Less manuals produced? Maybe people preferred the DCT? Sorry to break it to you buddy, but only on the forums people usually want the manual. Look everywhere else, sheesh look at the f80 forums. Majority of the people get fully loaded DCT cars. I wonder why....

Anyways, OP stick with your car and not waste the money. Use it for something else. Like when your DCT pan "Leaks"

[Munichm3]

Originally Posted by sleestak

I get that. I just needed a 6MT (something) in my garage so I settled for the 335i coupe (which also seems rare these days too). I don't disagree the parts are completely different between the two. I know that's true also.

If you're looking for a manual, get a Miata

[BGBF18]

I'm baffled why someone would purchase a weekend sporting car and not want the most involved version of said vehicle.

Plus: Words I've never said or heard a bro say "Oh cool, you went with the automatic...".

Last: I drove a DCT M2 a few months ago and it was cool...for about five minutes and then I was bored. Literally didn't know what to do with my hands...

[carenthuziast]

Originally Posted by BGBF18

I'm baffled why someone would purchase a weekend sporting car and not want the most involved version of said vehicle.

Plus: Words I've never said or heard a bro say "Oh cool, you went with the automatic...".

Last: I drove a DCT M2 a few months ago and it was cool...for about five minutes and then I was bored. Literally didn't know what to do with my hands...

Funny.

My neighbor (owns a cayman S) noticed my recently purchased E93 a few weeks go and as he sits on his porch while I do stuff outside around the house, he remarks "nice day to take your car out for a ride."

He first saw it when I had to pull it out of the garage to get my ladder out to clean the gutters.

Then his wife gets into the conversation: "Oh, is it an automatic (IOW: are you a eunuch?)?"

me: "No, 6MT."

her: "ohhhhhh, nice...my sons like driving their manuals...."

I'm not sure if neighbor's cayman is a manual, but he seems dying to want to drive my vert.

[Rajmun340]

[MunichM3] You do not know what you are talking about. There are many reasonnable dct owners who understand how frustrating it is to deal with dct issues. Your writting style shows less maturity than a middle schooler. It looks like you have no rational argument to oppose to the facts, numerical specs and known dct issues that I mentioned. I guess it is within the limitations of some people to do some irelevant clowning.

I said "The dct is known to have leak issues and is expensive to replace."
Absolutely true..

Leaking lines from the dct heat exchanger to the thermostat is a recurring problem. Cost $1,200 quoted by bmw dealer to repair. unbeknownst to most owners most dct start to weep oil before 20,000 miles. The plastic (!) dct oem oil pan is distorting and several of its seals are leaking oil. People are looking at aftermarket Viton gaskets and aluminium pan replacements (a good +10 lbs weight addition to 55 lbs ??)

the dct transmission needs to be dropped to replace the side and top seals which makes for expensive labor. Often both the side and the top seals leak.
Example of real paid bill can reach $2000, with nearly 60% spilt to parts.

Another dct owners bill on dct repair :
$1000 for labor
$750 for parts (lower pan, fluids, both gaskets, both filters, o-ring, mounts, all new bolts)

And if you choose BMW to do the repair expect even more : owner was quoted $3000 by bmw dealership.

Every dct owner can expect to have to do a dct service including new oil, new filters, new gasket, new dct pan if not before then at 100k miles. Of course some don't do it but except rough engagement when moving from a stop and gears getting skipped under load.

Even after doing these repairs using oem parts, people are complaining that DCT pan and mechatronics gaskets are again leaking. One such owner with just 45k miles on the car (and 13K miles after the repair, referenced thread below). Most frustrated dct owners have opted to top off the dct and ignore the problem as even if you fix it, it will leak again.

DCT leak problem lives on in the M4. There are documented case of M4 dct lower pan leak after only 800 miles. Join the dct leak club :

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...light=dct+leak

There is no dct in the 2018 M5.

Let see how much does a new dct cost :
GETBMWPARTS.com sell the dct for $ 11,794
All BMW dealers sell the dct for around $ 12,531

There is no question the 6MT is more reliable than dct and most reasonable people would expect so because of added complexity, novelty and number of moving parts resulting in higher reliability risk.

If you disagree then show me factual evidence (not clowning) of manual gearbox having to be systematically repaired or replaced (not single owner abuse).

"They outlast the 6MT clutch depending how you drive it" Utterly false, just plain malarkey.

" It's sooo terrible to have a perfect downshift each time. Gosh, how terrible it is to be able to not have to worry about being stuck in traffic and constantly jerking the cars dick off."
I guess one would have to lower to your farcical logic to avoid laughing at the ridicule of that statement. I do my downshift rev matches myself rather than experiencing a machine's downshifts. Heel and toe becomes second nature and requires less coordination than sports like football. It is accessible to anyone who decides to learn it. While dct is more convenient in traffic , it is a compromise in my view that is not worth giving up the enjoyment and involvement that a manual has to offer in spirited drives. Learning heal and toe and making progresses is very rewarding on a high revving engine like the S65. If you need a car for mainly driving through dense traffic then you bought the wrong car, this is a sports car. I understand that some people grew up with automatic transmissions, dct is for them.

"Heavier than a manual? Big deal, lose the extra 45LB off your belly."
I am muscular and fit, there's no 45 lbs coming anywhere off me, Lol. 45 lbs is some serious obesity.

more weight, reliability issue(s), expensive to repair, recurringly fails with oem parts, rated at lower maximum torque than 6MT. This is objective, not subjective.

I like the exclusivity of the 6MT transmission. Being in the majority does not make you right but surely a good sheep.

Even if the dct was issue free -which it isn't- I would still enthusiastically recommend the conversion from dct to 6MT to the original poster. There are several people who made the switch before you. Don't take my word, talk to them, they were unanimous in how much more fun the 6MT is. But expect to get biased responses if you ask the question to a majority of dct owners.

[Munichm3]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

[MunichM3] You do not know what you are talking about. There are many reasonnable dct owners who understand how frustrating it is to deal with dct issues. Your writting style shows less maturity than a middle schooler. It looks like you have no rational argument to oppose to the facts, numerical specs and known dct issues that I mentioned. I guess it is within the limitations of some people to do some irelevant clowning.

I said "The dct is known to have leak issues and is expensive to replace."
Absolutely true..

Leaking lines from the dct heat exchanger to the thermostat is a recurring problem. Cost $1,200 quoted by bmw dealer to repair. unbeknownst to most owners most dct start to weep oil before 20,000 miles. The plastic (!) dct oem oil pan is distorting and several of its seals are leaking oil. People are looking at aftermarket Viton gaskets and aluminium pan replacements (a good +10 lbs weight addition to 55 lbs ??)

the dct transmission needs to be dropped to replace the side and top seals which makes for expensive labor. Often both the side and the top seals leak.
Example of real paid bill can reach $2000, with nearly 60% spilt to parts.

Another dct owners bill on dct repair :
$1000 for labor
$750 for parts (lower pan, fluids, both gaskets, both filters, o-ring, mounts, all new bolts)

And if you choose BMW to do the repair expect even more : owner was quoted $3000 by bmw dealership.

Every dct owner can expect to have to do a dct service including new oil, new filters, new gasket, new dct pan if not before then at 100k miles. Of course some don't do it but except rough engagement when moving from a stop and gears getting skipped under load.

Even after doing these repairs using oem parts, people are complaining that DCT pan and mechatronics gaskets are again leaking. One such owner with just 45k miles on the car (and 13K miles after the repair, referenced thread below). Most frustrated dct owners have opted to top off the dct and ignore the problem as even if you fix it, it will leak again.

DCT leak problem lives on in the M4. There are documented case of M4 dct lower pan leak after only 800 miles. Join the dct leak club :

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...light=dct+leak

There is no dct in the 2018 M5.

Let see how much does a new dct cost :
GETBMWPARTS.com sell the dct for $ 11,794
All BMW dealers sell the dct for around $ 12,531

There is no question the 6MT is more reliable than dct and most reasonable people would expect so because of added complexity, novelty and number of moving parts resulting in higher reliability risk.

If you disagree then show me factual evidence (not clowning) of manual gearbox having to be systematically repaired or replaced (not single owner abuse).

"They outlast the 6MT clutch depending how you drive it" Utterly false, just plain malarkey.

" It's sooo terrible to have a perfect downshift each time. Gosh, how terrible it is to be able to not have to worry about being stuck in traffic and constantly jerking the cars dick off."
I guess one would have to lower to your farcical logic to avoid laughing at the ridicule of that statement. I do my downshift rev matches myself rather than experiencing a machine's downshifts. Heel and toe becomes second nature and requires less coordination than sports like football. It is accessible to anyone who decides to learn it. While dct is more convenient in traffic , it is a compromise that is not worth for giving up the enjoyment and involvement of a manual in spirited drives. If you need a traffic car for driving through dense traffic then you bought the wrong car, this is a sports car.

"Heavier than a manual? Big deal, lose the extra 45LB off your belly."
I am muscular and fit, there's no 45 lbs coming anywhere off me, Lol. 45 lbs is some serious obesity.

more weight, reliability issue(s), expensive to repair, recurringly fails with oem parts, rated at lower maximum torque than 6MT. This is objective, not subjective garbage.

I like the exclusivity of the 6MT transmission. Being in the majority does not make you right but surely a good sheep.

Even if the dct was issue free -which it isn't- I would still enthusiastically recommend the conversion from dct to 6MT to the operator. There are several people who made the switch before you. Don't take my word, talk to them, they were unanimous in how much more fun the 6MT is. But expect to get biased responses if you ask the question in a forum where dct owners are more numerous.

Tough guy here arguing paragraphs over the internet. It must be hard to compensate for something you lack in I didn't bother this wall of text, as you never understood my paragraph. Maybe because I'm some highschooler oh boy I'm so riled up now.

Look buddy, what you seem to not get it this, people choose 6MT or DCT because of preference. I got the DCT when I could've easily bought the 6MT. I prefer the convenience, reliability, and how fun it can be. I've owned plenty of 6MT cars, nothing special about them bud, that's why the 6MT is being phased out, as well as the DCT.

But I forgot, I am not superior enough to state the fact that some people don't care for the 6MT or don't find it as fun. Sorry master Joe Schmo of the 6MT m3s. Have fun rowing your gears while I "click" them away on my "unreliable" DCT

[GRUESOM3]

This thread got out of hand pretty quick. I recommend a tesla, if you want even less driving engagement. That's where dct owners will end up next.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by GRUESOM3

This thread got out of hand pretty quick. I recommend a tesla, if you want even less driving engagement. That's where dct owners will end up next.

Nope, thats where my limit goes. Couldn't stand being out of the petrol smell by the gas station every second day.