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12-20-2018, 09:48 PM | #23 | ||||||
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It should be. Knowing Bert the way I do, I'll bet he will weigh the crank and all the other parts. |
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12-20-2018, 10:14 PM | #24 | ||
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After Bert got the cams from Dinan, he emailed Schrick again. This time he asked if he could get the specs on the cams. Schrick said no specs because they don't make any cams for flat plane engines. (They never said they didn't, just said they don't.) Schrick gave Bert a clue though -- by saying they had no idea what Bert had in his possession. That was a clue, because the cams have a Schrick part number stamped on them. And for all you detectives out there, it's not a standard Schrick part number...so you can stop trying to figure it out. So, Bert took pictures of the part numbers, and sent them back to Schrick. 24-hours later, Schrick provided complete specs of the cams along with firing order. That's how Bert found out the firing order doesn't match the flat plane firing order programmed in the MSS60 ECU. In Bert's next email, he asked if they had any other hardware needed for the cams, AND if Schrick could now make the cams since they know the part number. Schrick again responded immediately with a whole slew of part numbers of things like valve springs, intake and exhaust valves, lash caps, etc. But in that same email, they gave a price quote to make more cams, and said they'd be willing. The key was the part number. Asking them to make flat plane cams wasn't enough. Knowing the part number was the key to unlocking the mystery and getting more cams made. Quote:
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12-20-2018, 10:48 PM | #25 |
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Nice, original content - loving it. Although to be honest, that video you can mostly hear only gear whine, lol.
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12-21-2018, 12:15 AM | #26 | |
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Here's a better video, they used the same V8 in the Z4 GTR if I'm not mistaken.
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12-21-2018, 06:51 AM | #28 |
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They said they could do anything given money but that they could build a cross plane with the same power output I was shooting for for far less (500 hp, no supercharger)
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12-21-2018, 07:18 AM | #29 | |
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I'd have to think it through more, but I don't think switching the harness around would work as desired. The mss6x DMEs have a Time Processing Unit (TPU) and each cylinder is programmed with a time offset from a zero reference, with that zero reference being Cylinder 1 TDC. With all of the TPU driven functions such as ionic knock sensing, misfire detection, anti-bucking, etc being driven per cylinder, I think it would be asking for more headache to go that route than modify the binary in the first place. I think what Ian is referring to in the limitations of the stock DME is the absurdity of time needed in fully developing calibration tables on a reflash-based ECU for what is essentially a new engine. The time it would take to disable closed loop fueling, fully develop all the VE tables, fully develop the ignition tables, fully develop the transient fueling, and so on would be immense when it takes so long to make a single change and see the results. On an standalone ECU with live tuning where you can make those changes while loaded on the dyno and immediately see the results, that whole process takes hours. Now, factor in that these DMEs are torque based and once the entire fueling and ignition phases are complete, you would want to go back and develop the torque tables so that the DSC and DCT behave as desired. |
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12-21-2018, 07:50 AM | #30 |
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This is pure car porn.
Well done. You haaaave to post a video of it running once complete!!
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12-21-2018, 11:15 AM | #32 | |
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The 292s with their supporting hardware will keep Vanos functionality. They were puzzled that the word on the street in the US was that 292s lost Vanos. So now I have the 292s and supporting hardware in a nice box in my living room!! |
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12-21-2018, 11:19 AM | #33 | |
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12-21-2018, 04:31 PM | #34 |
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I wonder who signed up for this project??
This is droooooooool worthy! Awesome job Bert and AutoTalent! .
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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12-21-2018, 05:09 PM | #35 |
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So what is the potential power difference versus a similarly built cross plane engine? Seems like a trumendous enough of effort and money for lightness. If Im not mistaken, I believe the S65 cross plane actually weighs less than the Shelby 350R flat plane.
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12-21-2018, 06:36 PM | #36 | |
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In the OEM, it's throttle pedal -> torque demand map (fahrwunsch) -> reverse lookup of static torque map (RPM/load) -> reverse lookup RPM/throttle cross section in mm2 -> actuator status -> percent throttle and idle actuators. The torque manager is a massively comprehensive model for all manner of torque producers and consumers (temp corrected engine friction, driveline friction, gearbox load) as well as lambda torque corrections and interventions. In effort to develop all of this accurately for the M1 firmware, my goal has been to model the OEM as closely as possible, hence the reason it's nowhere near complete. For some other standalones on this platform, speaking with the programmers, I was able get a few broad answers on how "in detail" this was modeled or if it was "just made to work" and the answer was more of the latter than the former. There is also a lot of tunability in the torque model parameters (Syvecs from what I hear, no direct experience), so again it's all a function of who did the tuning to make best use of available parameters. I've talked to a few who have used the Syvecs with DCT and their opinion was that it was fine for the track and horrible for the street. Aside from that, I've talked with Bert a little about this and it may be possible to fully develop the tuning on the engine dyno live with the Motec and if all the tables are configured to mimic the OEM, then transfer the values into the mss60 afterwards. |
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12-22-2018, 09:50 PM | #37 | |
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This is very interesting. Any idea of what the expected HP figures are?
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12-22-2018, 10:09 PM | #38 | |
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Manufacturer/Chassis: BMW (Germany) Engine until 2010 Season: BMW P65B40 4.0L (3999cc) V8 (Motorsport engine based on S65B40 from E9X M3; same basic engine block but with dry-sump lubrication, see attachment) Engine from 2011 Season: BMW P65B44 4.4L (4361cc) V8 (Motorsport engine based on S65B44 from M3 GTS; dry-sump lubrication). Unlike the flat-plane of the M3 GT, a cross-plane is used instead. Engine Plant: BMW Foundry in Landshut Max Power: 480BHP (P65B40), 535BHP (P65B44) Max RPM: 8750RPM Series/Spec: Numerous FIA GT series, including Nürburgring 24 Hours More Info: http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/en/cars/bmw-z4-gt3.html http://www.turnermotorsport.com/race-cars.aspx http://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-BMW-Engine-Codes.aspx Should be similar to these.
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12-26-2018, 10:17 PM | #39 |
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Hey im gonna need a new pair of pants. and another roll of tissues over here.....
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12-27-2018, 11:31 PM | #41 | |
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12-29-2018, 12:19 AM | #42 |
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I've talked to AutoTalent and it's $20k in parts alone, plus machine shop time, and labor.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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12-29-2018, 12:29 AM | #43 |
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12-29-2018, 06:21 AM | #44 |
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Looking up the cost of rebuilt motors from Carbahn is enlightening. I would expect the flat plane motor to exceed 30K as a 4.6 liter stroker is on the order of 25K. Not to mention the tuning issues.
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