E90 M3 vs. E39 M5

[Haywood]

If I ever get the nerve to sell my E92, I will buy a low mileage E39 from EAG. The best M5 ever and one the best M cars made.

[CSBM5]

It wasn't clear you already owned both cars, so you know well the comparison as it applies to your needs/desires, etc. A 20k miles E39 M5 with excellent provenance will sell for $40-50k now? Maybe more depending on the color and specifically how well kept it has been (i.e. garaged 24/7 since new, never in rain, etc).

I've had my M5 for 13 years now, bought it with 12k miles, and it now has 65k miles -- 24/7 garaged, caught in rain only a couple of times, etc, and I've had the M3 for 3.5 years, 16k miles when bought, 33k miles now. The M5 had numerous warranty claims when it was still under factory coverage, and since that ended in 2005, it really hasn't been too bad. The biggest item was probably the LSD, but that comes down to me autocrossing with R-comps a lot coupled with some track events (instructor), as the LSD clutches gave up at 52k miles back in 2008. At the moment, I'm getting ready to put in a new clutch (parts are waiting here for a few months now) plus change a couple rear suspension arms (boots torn); also the windshield washer reservoir has leaked for 10+ years but I've never fixed it since car doesn't see rain, but I have that planned soon too. I have a rear door vapor barrier seal that I have to fix (again, haven't fussed with it since no rain), and it needs a new clutch pedal cruise control switch. It's definitely an on-going needs type of car I suppose. Fortunately, it's a rather easy DIY car for the most part (especially with a good friend who's an E39 M5 expert more or less coupled with a fully equipped shop).

The 2011 E90 M3 on the other hand has been flawless since new. Not a single warranty claim, not a single problem of any sort. It's a heck of a lot more fun on course/track too, not to mention faster than the M5. My factory warranty ran out in Nov 2014, and I have CPO until Nov 2016...not sure whether to hope something goes wrong before Nov or not.

[Richbot]

If you meet a man who hasn't driven his E39 M5 in the rain and ask him why he is such a sad guy, rain driving = the most fun driving, chuck why you so sad

I was looking for a good E39M when I found my car new on the lot, and came really close to buying a Carbon/black '03 with about 35k on it for about $33k from EAG (damn, if I hadn't driven it, that would have made me some money!) Spent $49.5k instead of $33k, couldn't be happier that I did. My main gripes with the E39 in no particular order as an educated shopper were:

- mandatory sunroof and mandatory BMW can't make a sunroof that works, so mandatory sunroof fails and no I can't resist opening a sunroof if I have one
- mandatory Atari navigation system, powered by AOL Online
- frequent clutch jobs
- they were either pricey or beat to death with no in between, in retrospect this seems to be a used M car thing

The engine stuff didn't scare me as much, seemed pretty par for the course for M engines.

Echo all of Chuck's comments on the experience. I think E39M wins the comfort and convenience game thanks to the wheelbase, chassis tuning, trunk and back seat, but that's the end of its advantages. It's a torquey motor but still an NA 5.0 and in today's world of 1200rpm 350ft-lb torque peaks in just about everything you can buy, not as amazing as it used to feel. It really might as well be a Ford Coyote (which is a complement given it was developed in 98-ish from an engine family that first saw service in the early 90's). Still, I don't think I would still have it 6.5 years later if I had purchased one. There is something special going on with the E90M that I don't think is coming back. You can buy a very good imitation E39M today from Chevy for another year or two, but the compact sedan + V8 formula seems to be dead for good.

E90M has been our most reliable in and out of warranty BMW of the 6.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Richbot

I want to meet the guy who never drove his E39 M5 in the rain and ask him why he is such a sad guy, rain driving = the most fun driving, chuck why you so sad

Some of the wettest "weather" M5 ever saw was when instructing on the skidpad at VIR Of course this was maybe 10 years back now...

[Edward]

For its time the E39 M5 was more super sedan king than any car today can claim over its competitors. It was more beautiful for it's time and its stats more impressive. Build quality back then was superb also.

But it's 2016. The E39 has become a relic and only nostalgia makes me remember the car fondly. I still respect its place in history and think it is a good looking aged car. The motor still sounds as nice as or better than most modern cars. I just don't like the car enough to hop into it. One of my analysts at work has an E39 as his daily and it just looks a bit old.

[ec_E92]

Originally Posted by marc6SPD

Hey guys,
Probably the wrong forum to ask this question but I'm curious your objective views. Late '11 E90 M3 ZCP 6mt around 20k miles vs late '03 E39 M5 6mt around 20k miles. Which one would you pick?

So OP since you actually have both can you comment on size difference? Both perceived (dynamic) and actual backseat/trunk?

[-BEASTMW-]

Originally Posted by ec_E92

So OP since you actually have both can you comment on size difference? Both perceived (dynamic) and actual backseat/trunk?

I can since I've owned both. Back seat on the E90 is really just slightly tighter. I've heard that the F80 and E39 back seat are about the same. Trunk-wise, E39 is longer (lengthwise), but mine had the optional M Audio with two 10" subs jutting down quite a bit from the rear deck. I think on paper the E90 trunk is actually 1 cu ft bigger.

As far as dynamics, the M3 is about 8" shorter (basically same width/height) and ~300lbs lighter. I'd say the feeling is more like 12" shorter and 500lbs lighter. While the M5 handles itself impressively on a tight, twisty road, it's definitely a bigger girl and more biased toward comfy cruising than the M3. In fact, the M5's ride is one of the very best of any car I've ever been in (possibly even THE best), while the M3's I would describe as "firm but compliant." The M5 still drives great on a challenging road, but even with the M3 in full comfort, there's no question that the M5's body moves around more, it understeers more (though there are some somewhat simple fixes for this) and its brakes aren't as up to the challenge.

As I alluded to before, the M5 feels more like a muscle car that can handle, while the M3 feels like what a serious compact luxury sport sedan should feel like. Definitely a little more dedicated to driving fast. I'm sure that's true of every generation of M3 vs M5 - they are both awesome in somewhat different ways. I'd love to have both, but I'd sooner have a combo of say a 911/Cayman and M5 for a little greater contrast. I had my S2000 and M5 at the same time for a while and I'd say the M3 combines most of the strengths of both into an even faster and more capable package.

[marc6SPD]

Originally Posted by -BEASTMW-

I can since I've owned both. Back seat on the E90 is really just slightly tighter. I've heard that the F80 and E39 back seat are about the same. Trunk-wise, E39 is longer (lengthwise), but mine had the optional M Audio with two 10" subs jutting down quite a bit from the rear deck. I think on paper the E90 trunk is actually 1 cu ft bigger.

As far as dynamics, the M3 is about 8" shorter (basically same width/height) and ~300lbs lighter. I'd say the feeling is more like 12" shorter and 500lbs lighter. While the M5 handles itself impressively on a tight, twisty road, it's definitely a bigger girl and more biased toward comfy cruising than the M3. In fact, the M5's ride is one of the very best of any car I've ever been in (possibly even THE best), while the M3's I would describe as "firm but compliant." The M5 still drives great on a challenging road, but even with the M3 in full comfort, there's no question that the M5's body moves around more, it understeers more (though there are some somewhat simple fixes for this) and its brakes aren't as up to the challenge.

As I alluded to before, the M5 feels more like a muscle car that can handle, while the M3 feels like what a serious compact luxury sport sedan should feel like. Definitely a little more dedicated to driving fast. I'm sure that's true of every generation of M3 vs M5 - they are both awesome in somewhat different ways. I'd love to have both, but I'd sooner have a combo of say a 911/Cayman and M5 for a little greater contrast. I had my S2000 and M5 at the same time for a while and I'd say the M3 combines most of the strengths of both into an even faster and more capable package.

I would agree with the above. The M3 trunk feels bigger and those stupid subs in the M5 really get in the way. You can definitely tell the M5 is a bigger car when you drive it but the back seat space is not that much larger as mentioned.

I'm with you on a different combo for more contrast. Or just sell one of them and be more rational. Lol...

[CSBM5]

Just to add a little bit on the E39/E90 size differences -- I've owned an E90 330i (wife's car) since it was new 10+ years ago and the E90 M3 for over 3 years now too, and the whole time I've had the M5 too, so lots of comparisons. I'd say the rear seat is tighter in two areas, and they each matter to taller people.

I'm 6'2" a bit tall in the torso, so I can't sit completely upright in the back of an E90. If I am fully seated with my lower back against the backrest, my head has to be tilted just a bit in the E90.

The second area is foot room. If the front seat in the E90 is lowered most or all of the way, it takes away from the ability to slide feet up under the front seat. In other words, if someone my size or larger is sitting up front, it creates a foot room problem for a similar sized person in the back.

Overall, it's a narrower too in the "shoulder room" measurement. The F30/F80 matches the E39 in that regard, and the F80 has a good bit more headroom than the E39 even. The F80, size-wise, is the successor to the E39.

-BEASTMW- covered the driving dynamics well. My M3 is stock except for a Dinan front sway bar and I've removed the camber pins and set the front to max negative camber -- I autocross the car in SCCA stock class hence these specific and only mods so far (can't do anymore within the rules). With M5 on the other hand, I've long ago added: Dinan springs/Konis, adjustable rear sway bar, monoball thrust bushings, Ground Control camber plates (desperately needed on the E39 M5), and 9.5"/275 OE rears all around -- even with all these mods, the M5 still feels ponderous on turn-in through mid-corner, rides much softer than the M3, etc. It's a big, heavy feeling car with recirculating ball steering, a lesser design front suspension, etc, and it feels like it. However, that's fine since the M5 wasn't meant to cater to the same needs as the M3.

[Richbot]

I think the E39 feels a lot bigger inside than E90 because of the greenhouse, iirc E39 debuting nearly 10 years before E90 so E39 did not have to meet near as stringent roof crush/rollover requirements and if that's true the a and c pillars really show it, feels airier especially in back where the E90 sortof cocoons you, but yeah perception has a lot to do with "roominess"

[E90Dave]

Am I the only one who wasn't a huge fan of the E39 M5?

Yeah, it looks BEAUTIFUL and timeless, and has the 90s-early 2000s BMW heritage stamped on it, but I thought it handled like poop.

Heavy, under-damped, and a lack of mechanical grip in today's standards. We can't judge older cars on older standards anymore!

The sound was beautiful and I loved rowing through the gears, but didn't like the handling.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by E90Dave

Am I the only one who wasn't a huge fan of the E39 M5?

Yeah, it looks BEAUTIFUL and timeless, and has the 90s-early 2000s BMW heritage stamped on it, but I thought it handled like poop.

Heavy, under-damped, and a lack of mechanical grip in today's standards. We can't judge older cars on older standards anymore!

The sound was beautiful and I loved rowing through the gears, but didn't like the handling.

With the mods I've done on mine (listed above), on track it's decent as long as you adapt your driving style to its strengths/weaknesses. For example, you don't overcook an entry -- period. It responds "ok" to very heavy trailbraking and hitting the apex at just the right speed. If you're early rolling onto the throttle, all the torque will lift weight off the nose and you'll push wide on track out, so you have to be patient, take a bit of a "slow in, fast out" attitude, and then it's a brute. However, it will clearly punish you if you try to overdo turn-in speed and/or you're not very smooth with the inputs to the wheel and pedals. However, put it all together, and it's a blast in its own right.

[-BEASTMW-]

One great thing about the E39 M5 is the combo of forgiving dynamics, lots of torque, great throttle response, not "too much" grip, and a long wheelbase made it awesome at powerslides...

[RickP]

Originally Posted by Richbot

- mandatory Atari navigation system, powered by AOL Online

[pbonsalb]

The E39M5 is 13 years old at the newest. If you want a 13-17 year car, consider one. I think they look great, and during my 10 years of E39 ownership wished I had an M5 instead of a 528i. But when it was time for me to buy a used car in January 2011, I thought only briefly about E39M5. I looked mostly at E90 335i and M3 and bought an E90 M3. 5-6 years later I am still am happy.

[CooLeh7]

Still own a 1999 e39m5 with 125000km and bought an e92 m3 8 months ago. Quite different cars. The m5 is a classic, torquey down low and hasnt really aged too badly ( dont have the phone in arm rest option&#128514. Would say its more of a cruiser compared to the e92....obviously not compared to other cruiser cars. What gets me choosing to drive the m3 is the gear change. Even with an ssk, the m5 gear lever feels sloppy. Takes away some of the enjoyment especially compared to the tighter m3 6mt. Will likely sell the m5 soon as hardly drive it....luckily the resale value has held well especially for my low miler.

[-BEASTMW-]

Originally Posted by CooLeh7

What gets me choosing to drive the m3 is the gear change. Even with an ssk, the m5 gear lever feels sloppy. Takes away some of the enjoyment especially compared to the tighter m3 6mt. Will likely sell the m5 soon as hardly drive it....luckily the resale value has held well especially for my low miler.

Interesting... I put an E60 545i shifter, UUC DSSR linkage, and ZHP shift knob, and it actually shifted quite well - far better than the stock E90 shifter. I actually think they feel about the same stock. I'm hoping an F10 M5 knob is enough to substantially improve the E90's long, flexy shift feel, because actually swapping the shifter is much more expensive and involved than on the E39.

[marc6SPD]

Originally Posted by -BEASTMW-

Interesting... I put an E60 545i shifter, UUC DSSR linkage, and ZHP shift knob, and it actually shifted quite well - far better than the stock E90 shifter. I actually think they feel about the same stock. I'm hoping an F10 M5 knob is enough to substantially improve the E90's long, flexy shift feel, because actually swapping the shifter is much more expensive and involved than on the E39.

Interesting to hear the different experiences you guys have with gear shifting. I installed the whole UUC kit on the E39 and absolutely hated it. So I went back to stock DSSR and put in the E60 shifter, since its shorter that stock, plus I added the F10 knob and now it shifts great. I did change the fluid to Royal Purple Synchromax which supposedly also makes a big difference. I also put this guild in the E90 and definitely noticed much smoother shifts. The F10 knobs are great btw!

[Richbot]

You can't beat the M5 up too much over grip; it came with the original Michelin Pilot Sport and still pulled .90g on the skidpad, and the Pilot Sport is worse in every metric than some all-season tires sold today, like the Pilot Sport AS3. The Pilot Super Sport would liven up most 90's cars all by itself with no other mods

[tlow98]

Originally Posted by Richbot

You can't beat the M5 up too much over grip; it came with the original Michelin Pilot Sport and still pulled .90g on the skidpad, and the Pilot Sport is worse in every metric than some all-season tires sold today, like the Pilot Sport AS3. The Pilot Super Sport would liven up most 90's cars all by itself with no other mods

Bingo.

I recently spent an extended stint in the new m4. My god the things it can do stock are mind blowing. The torque management and rear end directness combined with front end grip for days are not to be doubted. Whether or not you like the way it gets numbers is a different, subjective argument.

Time marches on...

[W///]

Originally Posted by FMLYSDN

Can't go wrong with both. I think it's been said here over and over. Depends what your looking for. I would suggest the E39 in terms of a collector car. I think the value would hold well and for good examples, they are going to go up. I still miss mine. I see them and would like to have one again but I cannot justify having more than one car

I honestly no reason for the E90 M3 in good condition to really hold its value, especially if it's a 6MT.

You're really not going to find many 4 doors that can rev to 8200 RPM from factory with 3 pedals.

I definitely wouldn't mind adding an MR E90 to the E92 M3 Absolutely love this platform.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by W///

I honestly no reason for the E90 M3 in good condition to really hold its value, especially if it's a 6MT.

You're really not going to find many 4 doors that can rev to 8200 RPM from factory with 3 pedals.

I definitely wouldn't mind adding an MR E90 to the E92 M3 Absolutely love this platform.

The E90 M3 is a lot rarer than the E39 M5 also. The E39 M5 quantity imported to NA was 9,992 while the E90 M3 totaled 5,867. Out of the 5,867 there were 3,135 6MT E90 M3s imported. If you break that down further, 2,080 of those were 2008 models and the remainder, 1,055, were LCI (2009-2011). Hence trying to find something like a 2011 6MT with a slicktop (my dilemma 4 years back) is very difficult for a reason -- so few of them exist.

This comparison is only for the sedans of course. If you look at the E92, there were 15,799 imported with 6,235 of those 6MT.