First track day

[imserious]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Glad you had fun. I have a love/hate with Big Willow. If you keep going there, you will know what I mean.

Like you, I run the stock ZCP suspension with ZCP wheels/19" tires. The only issue with running street tires is that they will melt on you on a warm day there (and bad stuff will ensue). You should be ok in the winter.

Also, as you get a little faster, you will significantly wear the outside edge of the front tires (and sometimes the rears as well) and you run the risk of going through new tires in one or two sessions (like I did). More negative camber is the only fix. The stock ZCP suspension does not allow enough neg camber, so front camber plates/track alignment are essential.

Hope to see you out there!

Totally right. I'm just a newbie and it was COLD out. I'm sure tire wear changes in hot weather and more aggressive driving. Going through $1600 of tires in two sessions will not make the wifey happy. May have to invest in camber plates before tracking in hot weather.

And yes. It would be great meeting other M3poster tracking vets. Got lots to learn!

[imserious]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

You should downshift a little later in the braking zone so that your rpms will be lower and you wont be over revving. I used to heel toe at the beginning of the braking zone and got the revs pretty high. Now i do it towards the middle or near the end of the braking zone and that will get you to a nice rpm for tracking out. Should be easier with dct.

Agreed. And DCT makes it so easy to do so. I really think it would be a non-issue with 6SPD, but with DCT I'm not always 100% sure what gear I'm in. Sometimes I didn't look, but guessed that I needed to downshift or hold a gear and I guessed wrong. Just another data point to memorize and check going into each corner.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by ivad32

Nice post. After tracking a E36 M3 for a few years, I will be taking my E90 M3 to the track for the first time early February (Thunder Hill) and look forward to seeing how they differ.

Did you run with MDM and/or Power On?

Were you on stock pads? If so, any fade? That is my only concern for my first track. Since I still have a warranty, I figure if I eat the pads/rotors, BMW can replace them.

I'll chime in since I have driven Thunderhill many times. A lot of people will talk about other tracks but Thunderhill has some heavy braking zones if you are driving fast. Just the front straight you need to scrub speed from 120+mph to 60-70mph to clear turn 1. The back straight is also brake heavy as you do a hard right turn into 14.

The stock brakes on the M3 are totally inadequate for track. I drove the car stock and it is good for 3-4 laps before the brakes are done and need to cool off. This is with me trying to baby them as well.

I usually drive with no traction control, steering and power set to normal. It's really up to you what settings you like but I find this works for me. I can get some slip angle and throttle steer the car a bit when I want to.

Here is me last month at Thunderhill. This is towards the end of the day, you can see my overworked brakes pulsating under braking - vibrating the whole car. This is with Project Mu HC+ brake pads good for up to 1400 degrees F... stock pads would have fried long ago.

[pkimM3r]

120-60/70 is almost everwhere. Now 140-30 is pretty hard braking

Nonetheless it is hard braking regardless.

[Notnug]

Originally Posted by imserious

Totally right. I'm just a newbie and it was COLD out. I'm sure tire wear changes in hot weather and more aggressive driving. Going through $1600 of tires in two sessions will not make the wifey happy. May have to invest in camber plates before tracking in hot weather.

And yes. It would be great meeting other M3poster tracking vets. Got lots to learn!

Agreed 100% look into camber for the front. The faster you get the more you will wear the outside edges. And agreed, when its hot it will happen much much faster before you even know it. Adjusting the camber will save you money in the long run and will make the turn in much better even with the stock set-up.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

120-60/70 is almost everwhere. Now 140-30 is pretty hard braking

Nonetheless it is hard braking regardless.

agreed. both tracks i use particulally pacific raceways has a section guys can do 160plus in gtr/z06 down to 75-80 highest ive seen there is 140ish. still that extra 20mph is a bunch.

[tightie]

Awesome. I hope to see u at the track with me!

[imserious]

Originally Posted by tightie

Awesome. I hope to see u at the track with me!

I'll keep a lookout for your events. Would be great to run with a pack of m3s.

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by imserious

I got to experience my first track day this past weekend at Willow Springs. Good times! What an incredible car. Decided to download my thoughts here


Thoughts on the M3:

Ive been itching to take my car to the track knowing that street driving doesnt come close to experiencing the potential of this car. I expected to be impressed with the V8, but I was surprised to be most impressed with the chassis and suspension. Yes, the V8 pulled (probably would pull harder without a full time passenger). Yes, the V8 rev range gave you lots of room to be in the power band and made engine braking really quite useful. And yes, the throttle response was immediate. But the chassis and suspension really wowed me. At speed, it just did things I didnt think a 3700 lb car should be able to do and didnt drive like a 3700 lb car. You could brake deep and hard without significant nose dive. The lateral grip was incredible. Accelerating hard out of a tight turn, the LSD was working its magic. Even the traction control compensated for my mistakes and helped me to recognize what I was doing wrong. Never felt like it was slowing me down as much as being my tutor.

Between sessions the M3 made no complaints. Didnt even break a sweat.

After the track day was over I turned everything to comfort mode, clicked on the heated seats, found a nice Pandora station, cracked open the sunroof and had a very comfortable ride home.

I cant think of a better all in one package.


Thoughts on driving technique:

I had the benefit of a private instructor for every session. Very helpful to learn etiquette, learn the line and approach the limits safely. Highly recommended for newbies!

This was the first time I was able to experience throttle steering both to push the car wide and pull into a corner. (Again, no way you would do this on the street.) I started to get it a lot more towards the end of the day. Lots of fun!

I needed to relearn the M3s limits on the track. During street driving I know what it can do in a straight line and low speed turns, but under hard braking and higher speed corners it was a whole different story. I was very uncomfortable taking high speed turns, but gradually learned that when balanced, this car can hold a lot of speed in long sweepers. I also broke way too early because I wasnt used to it. This car can brake later and harder than you would think. I also didnt use 100% of the track because Im not used to trying to ride the edge of a road. This prevented me from hitting the optimal driving line in certain places. I need to find the edge of my tires.

Next time I am going to focus on braking later and harder, being in the right gear at the end of each braking zone, using off throttle to enter turns vs. braking when appropriate, turning in later & more sharply on some corners, and using the edge of the road. Oh and keep practicing throttle steer.


Thoughts on other cars:

Some people have a lot of disposable income. It was a lot of fun to see what people were hiding in their covered trailers. Saw some open top racecars and stock cars that were fun to see around the track.

I always heard miatas were little track beasts. You never know what these guys are packing in these 10+ yr old cars. Most had modified suspension with R comp tires. Many did not have the stock motor. Who knows, LS1, turbos, you name it. Its funny, but they are intimidating if you dont know what kind of heat they are packing.

Everyone knows GTRs are beastly. But man, down the straights they.are.beastly. Again, who knows how much HP they had, but the two I saw screaming down the straights made other cars look like they were standing still.


Final thoughts:

Very happy I got to experience the M3 on the track. On the streets its all about the engine. From a 0-60 perspective the M3 is pretty good. On the track its about the complete package, chassis/suspension/brakes/engine/transmission. On that front I found the M3 to be quite spectacular.

Congrats on your first track day; I'm sure you'll be hooked soon and signing up for more!

Just a couple interesting thoughts that struck me:

On the miata point, as you continue tracking (and move up to groups where drivers have experience) you'll be even MORE surprised to see how many of these miatas passing people DON'T have crazy modifications like engine swaps. The miata is a fun little track car, and for many drivers I know (including guys who aren't into Spec Miata) moving into higher maintenance upgrades like an LS1 swap ruins the fun. Nothing like having an engine that can be replaced with OEM direct-fitment convenience for 250 bucks from your local Pick-N-Pull. Additionally, being on track with guys who have just Spec Miata type upgrades, I've given plenty of point-bys while driving my E92 M3 (no modifications except pads/fluid, and I only run street tires).

On your surprise at how well the vehicle handles for a "3700 lb car," just remember that the BMW official listed weight of 3702 lbs (or whatever it was exactly) isn't an apples-to-apples comparison with U.S. listed curb weights. For some perspective, my E92 M3 (fully loaded, except for DCT and premium sound) on certified scales is lighter than my buddy's 2013 Mustang GT (fully loaded)--and Ford gives that official curb weight at around 3500 lbs. This comment isn't meant to take anything away from the E9X M3, but it's just a realistic perspective.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by imserious

I'll keep a lookout for your events. Would be great to run with a pack of m3s.

Well then sign up for Josh's next Big Willow event this Sunday Jan 5th!

There will be a variety of M3's from stock to modded, and drivers of all skill level and you can run whatever group you are comfortable in. Start in beginner and maybe move up to Intermediate later in the day as you get more comfortable with your car and the track. Sign up here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=923098

[imserious]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Well then sign up for Josh's next Big Willow event this Sunday Jan 5th!

There will be a variety of M3's from stock to modded, and drivers of all skill level and you can run whatever group you are comfortable in. Start in beginner and maybe move up to Intermediate later in the day as you get more comfortable with your car and the track. Sign up here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=923098

Thanks LB! Totally saw that event, but looking to avoid Sundays right now.

Have a great time. I look forward to the event pics.

[imserious]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

Congrats on your first track day; I'm sure you'll be hooked soon and signing up for more!

Thanks! Btw, it was humbling to be passed by "lesser" cars. It is just really evident that at this level, driver skill makes up for a lot. No need to dial in my car, just dial in my skills

[bk_g80_m3]

Originally Posted by Z K

I'll chime in since I have driven Thunderhill many times. A lot of people will talk about other tracks but Thunderhill has some heavy braking zones if you are driving fast. Just the front straight you need to scrub speed from 120+mph to 60-70mph to clear turn 1. The back straight is also brake heavy as you do a hard right turn into 14.

The stock brakes on the M3 are totally inadequate for track. I drove the car stock and it is good for 3-4 laps before the brakes are done and need to cool off. This is with me trying to baby them as well.

I usually drive with no traction control, steering and power set to normal. It's really up to you what settings you like but I find this works for me. I can get some slip angle and throttle steer the car a bit when I want to.

Here is me last month at Thunderhill. This is towards the end of the day, you can see my overworked brakes pulsating under braking - vibrating the whole car. This is with Project Mu HC+ brake pads good for up to 1400 degrees F... stock pads would have fried long ago.

Do you just swap pads and put higher temp fluid with stock rotors?

I will probably start another thread on brakes but I was wondering what your set up was, and if you have any problems overheating the brakes.

[klammer]

Originally Posted by imserious

Thanks! Btw, it was humbling to be passed by "lesser" cars. It is just really evident that at this level, driver skill makes up for a lot. No need to dial in my car, just dial in my skills

+10000

One of the things I did early on was to look up the spec miata track records and shoot for those

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by imserious

Next time I am going to focus on braking later and harder, being in the right gear at the end of each braking zone, using off throttle to enter turns vs. braking when appropriate, turning in later & more sharply on some corners, and using the edge of the road. Oh and keep practicing throttle steer.

Congrats! Nice to see more and more E9X M3s on the track. I think what you need to learn is the capability of your brakes. Keep in mind that braking later and harder is not always better. In fact, too many people throw out the anchor, turn in and the back end comes around since they have all of the weight on 1 tire. Its all about the balance of the car to maximize grip.

Not to mention that continually trying to brake later to find the limits could result in overcooking the corner and then something bad happens.

Originally Posted by imserious

DCT was fantastic, but I did miss knowing my gears by feel. This is the big drawback of DCT for me.

I've been saying this for awhile now. DCT is not nearly as mindless as people who never drove one in anger think. Wrong gear? You get severely punished by puttering out of a corner. Right gear? Fantastic!

Its so easy to shift. That also means is way easier to be in the wrong gear.

Originally Posted by pkim1079

You should downshift a little later in the braking zone so that your rpms will be lower and you wont be over revving. I used to heel toe at the beginning of the braking zone and got the revs pretty high. Now i do it towards the middle or near the end of the braking zone and that will get you to a nice rpm for tracking out. Should be easier with dct.

DCT doesn't matter, you won't overrev. The computer rev matches for you so the clutch wear is minimal.

In a 6MT, much more important to downshift closer to the turn in point. Downshifting early can also cause you to over brake.

Originally Posted by klammer

+10000

One of the things I did early on was to look up the spec miata track records and shoot for those

More like...never try and drive slower than that. Nothing worse than getting passed by a ///Miata.

[klammer]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Congrats! Nice to see more and more E9X M3s on the track. I think what you need to learn is the capability of your brakes. Keep in mind that braking later and harder is not always better. In fact, too many people throw out the anchor, turn in and the back end comes around since they have all of the weight on 1 tire. Its all about the balance of the car to maximize grip.

Not to mention that continually trying to brake later to find the limits could result in overcooking the corner and then something bad happens.

I've been saying this for awhile now. DCT is not nearly as mindless as people who never drove one in anger think. Wrong gear? You get severely punished by puttering out of a corner. Right gear? Fantastic!

Its so easy to shift. That also means is way easier to be in the wrong gear.

DCT doesn't matter, you won't overrev. The computer rev matches for you so the clutch wear is minimal.

In a 6MT, much more important to downshift closer to the turn in point. Downshifting early can also cause you to over brake.

More like...never try and drive slower than that. Nothing worse than getting passed by a ///Miata.

No doubt, but don't want to give the guy a complex if he's getting tennis elbow pointin the little buggers by

[imserious]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Congrats! Nice to see more and more E9X M3s on the track. I think what you need to learn is the capability of your brakes. Keep in mind that braking later and harder is not always better. In fact, too many people throw out the anchor, turn in and the back end comes around since they have all of the weight on 1 tire. Its all about the balance of the car to maximize grip.

Not to mention that continually trying to brake later to find the limits could result in overcooking the corner and then something bad happens.

Great point! Braking hard and deep is not always the right answer. More likely I need to get to know the capability of the brakes so I don't brake too early OR too late. Again this is something easier to learn on the track. I'm not regularly rapidly decelerating from 120+ mph to enter corners in street driving. Need more track time

[tlp]

Glad you enjoyed your first time out. Instruction in the beginning really sets a nice foundation going forward. You need to give Buttonwillow a shot.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by imserious

Great point! Braking hard and deep is not always the right answer. More likely I need to get to know the capability of the brakes so I don't brake too early OR too late. Again this is something easier to learn on the track. I'm not regularly rapidly decelerating from 120+ mph to enter corners in street driving. Need more track time

Actually you can work on braking while street driving. The key to smooth and accurate braking is to know when you need to be off of the brakes before you start braking.

Start applying the brakes more aggressively early on and then reduce braking pressure so that you can't feel the car coming to a stop. The only way you can do that is you have to know where the car needs to stop before you get on the brakes.

[surlynkid]

Originally Posted by imserious

Great point! Braking hard and deep is not always the right answer. More likely I need to get to know the capability of the brakes so I don't brake too early OR too late. Again this is something easier to learn on the track. I'm not regularly rapidly decelerating from 120+ mph to enter corners in street driving. Need more track time

It is dynamic though. As soon as you get your braking figured out, you'll be going faster next lap and have to keep adjusting your braking. Every time I nail T1-T2 at TWS CCW, I tend to overshoot the braking zone in T3. I come in too hot for what "was" my braking zone.

[USCTrojanMan29]

Originally Posted by tlp

Glad you enjoyed your first time out. Instruction in the beginning really sets a nice foundation going forward. You need to give Buttonwillow a shot.

+1 Buttonwillow is a great local track.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by fjork_duf

Do you just swap pads and put higher temp fluid with stock rotors?

I will probably start another thread on brakes but I was wondering what your set up was, and if you have any problems overheating the brakes.

I am running Project Mu G-four fluid. It has a dry boiling point of 335 degrees C. Higher than Motul 600 and Castrol SRF - the fluid is not the problem.

Towards the end of the sessions I was getting a lot of brake fade. I would pull out into the pits when I felt the braking was getting marginal. As I mentioned, the stock brake system is not adequate for track use. With high temp brake fluids and high temp pads, it will be better but not optimal.

I ran Thunderhill before with stock pads and you'd be able to do max 3-4 laps before the brakes overheated. That doesn't mean you can't keep on driving after overheat... but the brake performance is noticably worse.