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05-26-2011, 12:58 PM | #23 | |
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- who with professional experience in mounting tires can tell me and also show some sort of documentation (ie URLs, other posts on this forum, etc) that mounting tires onto the wheel can cause bubbles onto the sidewalls as on the tires that were sent to me from the Seller? Love to hear from any of the shops on the forum who does tires. Cause what you are saying is what the Seller first said to me - its the tire shops fault. He even cited the white mark on one tire photo as mounting damage. Unfortunately that white mark was a grease stain (the grease used during the mounting) and has since washed away. And to your theory, it also goes the other way: you are saying a tire shop puts bubbles on the two rear tires during mounting, at the exact same spot/placement on the tire, but the front two tires are perfectly fine - no issues during mounting.
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05-26-2011, 01:11 PM | #24 | |
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The bubbles are on the inside of the tires. The Shop could have easily just put the tires on my car and I would have never ever known about the bubbles. Again, I have a history with the shop and bring all my cars there for my wheels/tires mounting, summer set/winter set removal etc. I never had a problem with them before. I believe they are honest. The shop told me about the bubbles cause they wanted me to know about it. I been this route with the Seller (that was his first response to me). After much discussion with that shop, and other parties and looking it up on the internet it seems very remote that they did the bubbles during mounting. I can't find anything where people say its a common enough cause - let alone on 2 tires at the same time! Think of it from my shoes. What are the probable odds here? The tires were perfect and the shop puts two identical bubbles on these 2 tires or the tires had bubbles already on them when I received them.
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05-26-2011, 01:14 PM | #25 |
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Warzilla,
I certainly can understand the frustration that you are having about all of this, but just wanted to add the little I can to the situation. First, I can certainly speak to Nivedh's character, I've known him for a while and know that he would NEVER sell defective products. He is, in fact, in grad school at one of the most respected and prestigious schools in the US. I say that to shed some light on the fact that he isn't some misinformed individual; he certainly is smart enough to steer clear of committing fraud or any sort of misrepresentation. To be frank, I feel the situation is a bit odd to begin with. Despite his iTrader feedback/rating being 79 (without any negative feedback), you were still concerned with the transaction and had a Bill of Sale drafted that, substantively, only states an acknowledgment of the sale and that the wheels are being sold "as is." Although the bill of sale was perhaps an extra protection if a seller were to take the money and run, its use for a forum-to-forum member sale seems odd to begin with, esepcially given his rather high positive feedback. (however, I can understand the hesitancy with any online sale). The main issue that I see, which has been pointed out, is the fact that the tire shop would still mount the tires if they were defective. It must be stated that a TIRE SHOP would certainly have an interest in wanting you to buy THEIR tires instead of the minimal shop fee that it cost you to install them. To me, that certainly adds a relevant inquiry to the entire transaction. Upon receiving the tires, did you look them over? I think any reasonable person would have certainly looked over the tires upon receiving them, especially given your concern with the transaction to begin with. Also, if you were concerned with the transaction, why would you not REQUIRE insurance on the fedex shipment? That really seems troubling given how things have happened. The demand for $300 is also strange. How do you come up with that number? I couldn't say it enough, I would be frustrated too but the facts seem a bit odd to begin with. With all of this, again, I can only say that Nivedh would not send you a defective product. There have been three SEPERATE parties that touched those wheels AFTER they left Nivedh's hands: Fedex, yourself, and the tire shop. There is certainly room for negligent care of those tires by anyone in that chain. I really hope you both are able to figure out an amicable solution to the situation and I truly only share my opinions based on Nivedh because I know him personally and can attest to his honest character (and I think 79 other buyers can too).
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05-26-2011, 01:35 PM | #26 |
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So true!
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05-26-2011, 01:43 PM | #27 | |||
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What I wrote back to him (but was badly written on my part) was that the tires were mounted on the wheels, and the shop called me to looked at them because they noticed the bubbles on the tires at that point. I took the pictures of the tires/bubbles at that moment with my phone and contacted the seller immediately that day. I also sent him the photos. He blamed the tire shop immediately for the cause I told the tire shop to put the tires/wheels on my car because my old tires were worn to shreds and I had no choice at the moment but between putting my old tires on or keeping the current tires that were mounted on the wheels from the Seller. But my point to him about the Shop as witness, which seems to have stirred the Seller and many here, was they were going to witnesses to say that no, the bubbles were on the tires, mounted on the wheel BEFORE I drove the tires on my car. Again, this was in response to his accusation that I drove and caused the bubbles myself. To follow up on the keeping the shop responsible for the bubble damage, I followed up with another tire shop, talked to individuals who know about tires, and looked all on the web. All came back with the same result: very much impossible that those bubbles came from wheel mounting. And to happen twice? Just increase the odds that was not the case. Quote:
Any suggestion on how to get to that resolution would be greatly helpful.
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05-26-2011, 01:48 PM | #28 | |
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Nivedh is a great/honest seller. |
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05-26-2011, 02:16 PM | #29 | ||||||
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2nd, again abut the shop's integrity. I feel weird, always defending them to you guys, but I've been going to them for years and never had a issue. On top of that, I have brought tires from Tire Rack and shipped it to them to mount and put on my car and they never ever had an issue with that as well. So again, while its easy to blame the 'shop', let it be known I've always had a good relationship with them and they were always honest with me. Thats why I go to them instead of the stealerships for my tires stuff. Quote:
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05-26-2011, 02:21 PM | #30 | ||
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05-26-2011, 02:27 PM | #31 |
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here's what i dont get... so the shop mounted the tires ruined the tires? BY mounting? how the fawk can you create bubble by mounting tires?
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05-26-2011, 02:27 PM | #32 |
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For the record I do not know either of the involved persons. I have read the whole thread thus far.
Whoever damaged the tires doesn't matter at this point. It could have been owner before Nivedh, nivedh himself, warzilla, shipping company or tire shop. Regardless of the damage I think that warzilla is being very reasonable in his request for a 25% refund of the price he paid. Most people in his position would request a full refund or at least enough to cover the damaged goods. In this case, 50% for two tires. It seems that for a miniscule amount of $300 for Nivedh not to resolve this peacefully would be unwise since it hurts his reputation. It would appear that his reputation is important since he sells many items on this and possibly other forums. Denying the refund because you are in school and can't afford $300, thus offering parts for a refund, is very disreputable considering the vehicle he drives. If you are selling items for $1200 then you should be prepared for mishaps that may need to be covered and he doesn't even have $300 to his name? Doesn't seem like an honest approach to conducting business. I say refund the $300 and be done with the hassle and possibly other recourse that buyer may seek. |
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05-26-2011, 03:27 PM | #33 | |
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The issue with the entire transaction is WHEN the goods were damaged, which is what has created the problem. Its hard to assume, especially with Nivedh's track record with 79 positive sales, that he would ship defective goods (which is why I and others have commented to his honest character, which Warzilla seems to agree). With that, I think everyone is uneasy how this has turned out for both parties, I doubt either wanted to be confronted with this kind of result! I honestly feel bad for everyone involved, but again, it all depends on when the tires became defective...
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05-26-2011, 03:38 PM | #34 |
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^ Right. But there is absolutely no way of finding out when the tires were actually damaged. Therefore, it also wouldn't be ethical to assume that buyer damaged the wheels just because seller has a positive sale record. Therefore I think the right and most effective solution is to offer buyer a refund, this way both parties share the loss.
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05-26-2011, 03:45 PM | #35 |
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This is an interesting dilemma and it sounds like two honest and reputable guys are stuck in a quandry. The unbiased reality though is simple and applies to any transaction, imo, whether private or not. It's the buyer's responsibility to inspect the product when it arrives, plain and simple. Once the tires were mounted, they are no longer the vendors responsibility to accept returns because it is impossible to prove how the damage happened. If the vendor feels he should show some good faith by the way of a partial refund, that's his choice.
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05-26-2011, 03:57 PM | #36 |
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this is pretty much fraud and immoral... but you could ship them, buy insurance, then claim that they got damaged during that shipment and get $1k or so back...
I mean, I'm not promoting it, I'm not for fraud, but it is an idea. Just saying...
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05-26-2011, 04:01 PM | #37 | |
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- first, if you didn't know the Seller, you're wouldn't have the position you currently have (that the Seller is too honest to sell bad tires). Right? So if you didn't personally know the Seller, would you still feel that the Seller has no % responsibility in this matter based on what you have read? Be honest - probably not, right? - So you do know the seller. He has a track record of 79 sales with positive ratings. No negatives. (I personally don't know how many of them were tires). So you are saying based on that record, he couldn't have made a mistake in selling bad tires to me? Your 100% believe that - cause in my mind, no one bats 1000% as they say in the majors. There is always going to be 1 case or a some that happens to even the best of sellers and best of people. - If you are keyed on the timeline of when the tires were damaged, I will go by an assumption here that you are either blaming the shipping company or the tire shop that did the mounting. Lets address both of them. a. Shipping company. The Seller ships the tires. If they are damaged via the shipping process, wouldn't it be because he didn't package it properly - hence some blame goes his way? Blame for me that I didn't do the insurance. But what is the reality of that happening, right? How can you get 2 bubbles on tires during shipping (anyone who had that happen to them, please jump in) b. Tire Shop. So they did it by mounting the tires on my wheels. Well as I sort of addressed in the other posts who think the same way - show me. Cause I did my research and no one knowledgeable about tires has said that bubbles can be caused by the mounting process (if using the proper gear, which my shop has). And note, this was done on both back tires. So in your mind, not only did the tire shop cause a bubble on the tire by the mounting process but did it twice? I'm telling you, it does not happen (but I'm happy for someone to say and prove it outerwise. Again, I'm not God here, and if you're a professional tire shop that says you did it, jump in) The basic issue with this is that its a buyer/seller issue. No matter what, a Seller in this case has some % of responsibility to the buyer when an issue like this happens. I'm not here to hurt him or harm him. I just want a happy resolution so we both can get on our way. But its not offering a BMW pulley. Its not offering $100.00. I'm hoping that the Seller can work with me here and come to a solution, cause I'm still open to work something out. The question is he or is he just totally running away from this?
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05-26-2011, 04:03 PM | #38 | |
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05-26-2011, 04:07 PM | #39 | |
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05-26-2011, 04:09 PM | #40 | |
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The warranty does not cover bubbles that look like they were caused by hitting a pothole or such. Also there is an initial warranty or something like that, but thats for the 1st year. These tires were almost 2 years old by the time I got them. I read the actual warranty as well. No coverage for bubbles (or what they would call self causing damage to the tires). I kept on telling this to the Seller but he keeps on mentioning the Warranty back to me. And how Michelin will give me new tires. Again. I went to 2 authorized Michelin dealers in my area, who looked at the tires. They said "NO WARRANTY" coverage.
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05-26-2011, 04:10 PM | #41 |
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Hey Warzilla, just wanted to say how sorry I am for what you are going through. I am a good friend of Nivedh, he worked on my car, pretty much would not trust anybody, but him with my cars and I can vouch for him that he would not sell anybody something that was damaged as new. He has an impecable sellers reputation, that I doubt very seriously that he would mess up, by making some money from a member in this forum. I do hope that everything can be worked out in the interest to both of you. I probably was not any help to you on this matter, but wanted to really vouch for Nivedh.
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05-26-2011, 04:18 PM | #42 |
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05-26-2011, 04:25 PM | #43 |
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I’m just throwing my 2 cents in here on NiVeDh. I have personally known him for almost 3 years and have bought many items from him with No Problems. He is a very generous guy and he would never send out an item that was less than 100% working. Whenever there is someone with a problem here in the ATL he is the First one to lend a hand.
I personally have seen tires bubble like that during installation due to over pressure.
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05-26-2011, 04:29 PM | #44 |
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Answering & Quoting Warzilla (my answers in bold):
I would address your post in a couple of ways: - first, if you didn't know the Seller, you're wouldn't have the position you currently have (that the Seller is too honest to sell bad tires). Right? So if you didn't personally know the Seller, would you still feel that the Seller has no % responsibility in this matter based on what you have read? Be honest - probably not, right? Legally speaking, the buyer assumes the risk after the goods have left their control - So you do know the seller. He has a track record of 79 sales with positive ratings. No negatives. (I personally don't know how many of them were tires). So you are saying based on that record, he couldn't have made a mistake in selling bad tires to me? Your 100% believe that - cause in my mind, no one bats 1000% as they say in the majors. There is always going to be 1 case or a some that happens to even the best of sellers and best of people. No, I didn't say could not have, I just spoke to his honest character and demonstrated that it would be reasonable, based on his record, that he wouldn't have shipped had he KNOWN of any defects - If you are keyed on the timeline of when the tires were damaged, I will go by an assumption here that you are either blaming the shipping company or the tire shop that did the mounting. Lets address both of them. a. Shipping company. The Seller ships the tires. If they are damaged via the shipping process, wouldn't it be because he didn't package it properly - hence some blame goes his way? Blame for me that I didn't do the insurance. But what is the reality of that happening, right? How can you get 2 bubbles on tires during shipping (anyone who had that happen to them, please jump in) No, as stated, that is the purpose of insurance and why the BUYER has the option to purchase such insurance in case the shipping company does damage the goods during shipment. I am no expert on tires, but it is reasonable to believe that damage could occur; what are the odds? your guess is as good as mine b. Tire Shop. So they did it by mounting the tires on my wheels. Well as I sort of addressed in the other posts who think the same way - show me. Cause I did my research and no one knowledgeable about tires has said that bubbles can be caused by the mounting process (if using the proper gear, which my shop has). And note, this was done on both back tires. So in your mind, not only did the tire shop cause a bubble on the tire by the mounting process but did it twice? I'm telling you, it does not happen (but I'm happy for someone to say and prove it outerwise. Again, I'm not God here, and if you're a professional tire shop that says you did it, jump in) The basic issue with this is that its a buyer/seller issue. No matter what, a Seller in this case has some % of responsibility to the buyer when an issue like this happens. As said again, which you have admitted as a fault of your own, you did not purchase any insurance for shipping. Legally speaking he is not under any obligation to refund you. The % of responsibility on the seller's part ends upon relinquishing control to the shipper, unless parties contract otherwise I'm not here to hurt him or harm him. I just want a happy resolution so we both can get on our way. But its not offering a BMW pulley. Its not offering $100.00. I'm hoping that the Seller can work with me here and come to a solution, cause I'm still open to work something out. Trust me, I understand your frustration and I hope that you can work out something! Fraud requires knowledge (actual knowledge or constructive knowledge, i.e. should have known), and failing to disclose such fact with the intent to deceive. It seems these defects could not have been known upon looking at them. It would only be immoral if he was actually trying to screw the buyer over... which is not the case
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