New guy asking for advice...2013 M3 or 2016 M4

[Transfer]

I love the E92 M3 but I would never get an E93 unless it was going to be supercharged. Not enough power in the S65 for 4000 lbs IMO.

[Montaver]

So you want something convertible, can DD, but also HPDE? Pretty tricky to get all three at 'normal' car prices particularly the HPDE part. I wouldn't touch an E93 or F83 personally, neither are great cars.

You haven't mentioned what your budget is, but based on your prior R8 and F430 I would be looking at a 570S. Carbon tub, roof off, can easily be daily driven as the suspension is so good. If that doesn't fit your budget, I would look at a 991.1 C2S. I have done about 1K miles in one, fantastic on every level and the chassis never felt floppy.

Alternatively just buy something more track dedicated if you have the space for more than 1 car, opens up the choices a lot.

[SCKOMS]

Originally Posted by Montaver

You haven't mentioned what your budget is, but based on your prior R8 and F430 I would be looking at a 570S. Carbon tub, roof off, can easily be daily driven as the suspension is so good. If that doesn't fit your budget, I would look at a 991.1 C2S.

I don't want another exotic/supercar at this point, otherwise I would be looking at R8 V10 again. Porsche just doesn't do it for me esthetically....not a fan of the 911 look.

The HPDE use would be 2 or 3 times a year, so no need for a dedicated track car.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by SCKOMS

I don't want another exotic/supercar at this point, otherwise I would be looking at R8 V10 again. Porsche just doesn't do it for me esthetically....not a fan of the 911 look.

The HPDE use would be 2 or 3 times a year, so no need for a dedicated track car.

If your used to driving an F430 on track, both the E93 and F83 are going to feel like pigs. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

Get a C63 vert, then you have V8 sounds and new tech combined.

[SoCalRPM]

Originally Posted by Redd

In a way I agree with what the F8x guys are saying. I came from a series of turbo cars into the E92 M3 and I was underwhelmed my first month with the car. No torque to speak of.

But while I missed the shove in the ass from the turbos, I realized that the S65 picked up speed at an insane rate, and kept pulling til 8k where turbos would have run out of steam at 5.5k. Turbos gave you that strong initial push in the back, then it settled down and you felt the push lessen after 5.5k. The V8 initial push is smaller, but that pressure remains until you decided to shift at 8k+. The V8 wasn't slower, it just felt different.

Then I got a BPM stage 2 tune and that greatly increased the low end torque and overall driveability for me. Solid rear subframe bushes made the chassis feel one generation newer and tighter (totally agree that stock E9x M3 chassis felt sloppy). Android iDrive screen brought the in-car tech into the modern era.

Granted it's not fair to compare a modded E9x M3 with a stock F8x. Just trying to say that there are ways to make an E9x more like F8x in all the areas that matter. But there's no way to make an F8x sound like an E9x.

Looks wise, the F8x generation is gorgeous, especially the M4. Real head turner, whereas the E9x M3 looks a bit 'soft' by today's standards. F8x cabin looks slightly newer but still nowhere as nice as AMG interiors of this generation so I don't think it's much to shout about there.

For me the litmus test was this - With my previous turbo cars, I realized I started getting bored of them after 3 yrs, and changed them in the 4/5th year. I plan to keep the E9x M3 forever, and I'd be lying if I said the V8 wasn't a huge part of that decision. Good luck!

+1

This reflects my feelings, too!

[Whyte Dynamyte]

C8 Corvette

[M3anest]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I copied my post there to rile them up

Haha, that's awesome. Doesn't seem like they have much to say besides torque. In fact some F80 drivers there are talking about how they enjoyed driving the E90s.

[Eddien123]

Coming from an NSX and R8, I doubt either of these cars will surprise you. With that said, if you're looking for the experience, it's the E93. Better steering, more direct feel to the road and above all, that NA V8.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by M3anest

Haha, that's awesome. Doesn't seem like they have much to say besides torque. In fact some F80 drivers there are talking about how they enjoyed driving the E90s.

The F8X is a great generation and I have zero doubts about which I'd buy if it's F8X vs its competitors. I tracked a C63 and was ready to light the car on fire but that's a story for another day

The E9X, for the street, is probably the high point of any generation. It's sublime, especially if the OP can get a nice low mileage mint one.

[Richbot]

For a droptop - E93 all day long. That exhaust note was meant for an open car - open windows, open roof, open trunk, remove the rear 1/4 panels and seats if you can, cut holes in everything to let it in. And that's not even considering the best part - you can hear the induction noise that much ebtter. If you are at all an aural fixation type, it's an easy choice

And this is coming from somebdoy who thinks the S55 actually sounds pretty good.

I'd rather get an F13 M6 vert than an F83, because sound. It's just such an important part of a fun day in a convertible, listening to the engine do its thing. Maybe even the most important part other than looking up at the sky

[New2Roundel]

Looking at the specs of the F430 and e9x M3, they are remarkably similar from an engine perspective. Small displacement V8, both have hp in the low 400s and torque under 300 lbs/ft. However, the driving experience should be much greater in the f-car given that it's mid-engined and in a platform dedicated to performance driving.

So you're going to give up a lot of the special feel going from the F car to any BMW. You've owned a lot of cars with a dedicated performance platform. BMWs are really nice cars, but designed around more pedestrian platforms. It really depends on what type of driver you are in this case. I drove the F80 (M3) on a track and DCT and thought it was a very capable car. Lots of torque---and yes, it goes all the way to redline. It doesn't tail off like the OP mentioned. But it's also very sterile, IMO. It's extremely capable---it's a car that unless you're a very advanced driver really needs no mods, especially with the CCBs. It's a legit buy the car one day and track it the next type of experience.

I have not tracked my own car (yet), but the car in general is a lot more tempermental. The brakes are known not to be great in stock form, especially for the track. The engine can run pretty hot. There are issues with rod bearing, that should be addressed if you're going supercharged and you might want to do anyway if you're tracking the car. You need to wind the car out to get any feel of real speed (just drove some new M cars on Saturday back to back with my e92).

The problem is that many of the cars you've owned in the past were essentially designed to be roadsters/convertibles by design. The 3 series/4 series is not that car. It's a big pig of a car. You add a supercharger to the e93 and you've not only made the car heavier overall, you've added more weight over the front wheels. Not good for the balanced handling these cars are designed for.

I think you'll be disappointed with either choice in the end. Your F430 spider weighs 3450lbs (quick search, not sure how exact the number is) and the e93 weighs just about 4000lbs. Add another, what 100lbs for a blower and plumbing?

The m3(4) is really designed to be most effective as a performance car with a fixed roof. Period. They are at their best from a performance perspective in this state. Chopping the roof looses a lot and values of the e93 supports this. F83 may be better from a weight and chassis stiffness perspective, but it's not worlds different.

Your best bet for what you're looking for are the following:
Boxster S
Alfa 4C
Lotus Elise
Corvette (C6/C7, as they have a removable targa top. C8 would also be spectacular)

With your history and wants, I would not consider the cars on your list.

[ATLIEN]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Unless you are frequently doing highway pulls with other people, something I don't advise in general, the E9X feels plenty powerful. You do not need to 'rev to 8k' to go buy bread in the morning.

I totally agree with this. I've got a tuned 335i that puts out monster torque and I reach for the M3 keys every day. I rarely rev to 8k RPMs and am flat out having the time of my life. The M3 was supposed to be my garage queen and weekend car and my 335 is winding up taking that role lol.

[Gesler]

Agree with this. I have an e90 M3.

Way back before buying it, I test drove an e93 M3. Dealer told me he had a manual e90/92 and after driving 100 miles to the dealership, gave me keys to the e93 M3 with DCT. I had a 335i at the time, completely stock in terms of powertrain, and the M3 convertible felt like a pig in comparison. Testdrove a manual e92 at a different dealership and that was a very different experience.

Always hear good things about the newer M3 at the track despite the turbo engine, and Id imagine the turbo engine can better haul the additional weight of the convertible.

Originally Posted by Transfer

I love the E92 M3 but I would never get an E93 unless it was going to be supercharged. Not enough power in the S65 for 4000 lbs IMO.

[M3anest]

Check out this video, it shows two heavily modified models of the cars you are deciding on. Despite the M4 being faster, the comments speaks for itself.

[Chromey]

Too each there own but I have to disagree about the e93 m3 is just a pig, bottom Line is it sounds like the OP is looking for the thrill of the driving experience vs track performance as anyone who has driven or owned a v10 R8 or the blistering quick Nsx and felt they needed to sell it and I don’t mean to put words into OP mouth, but I’m assuming isn’t looking for a DD that blasts the 1/4 mile.. therefore taking a m3 which in all forms even the e90 and e92 are by today’s standards all less than considered extremely fast cars. This makes me think the e93 with a nice exhaust and intake and maybe a xpipe and tune would be a perfect car.. I’ve driven more than a few e92 stick and dtc and yes they are quicker out of a corner or off the line than the e93 but in no way do they provide a more enjoyable Theatre for a DD when u have the top down on a sunny day. The e93 is more than capable of fulfilling what 90% of drivers are capable of doing on normal streets. The driving experience for a Petrol head in all ways that matter i think the e93 m3 nails it better than any car in its price range. OP has owned super cars so speed I don’t think is all he is looking for so the m3 makes a great choice as that is where it lacks behind perhaps the competition mentioned but it Excell’s everywhere else. Plus if you buy a nice e93 m3 and don’t like it after a year or so you can easily sell without much loss as the depreciation has already hit.. chances are they will start to rise in price in years to come as all these new cars are becoming less engaging and more like the nsx...

[Chromey]

Sorry just realized I may have been a bit off topic, e9x vs f80.. driven both plenty stick and dtc.. got out of a stick m4 and at the time into my fully tuned 335i and right away noticed the steering difference and said to the sales guy no way would I spend another 55k to trade my 335i for the m4.. my 335i was actually quicker but not nearly as smooth and secure feeling, anyhow I then took out a e93 m3 and that was that. Easy Choice. F80 sounds well it’s well documented the overall feelings on that. To be honest in the car the m4 didn’t sound that bad but outside , jeesh it’s imo terrible for a sports car. Go e93 m3 or perhaps wait for the new C8 vette

[Tiffany@ActiveAutowerke]

This is something I'm considering right now for the future as well, Right now my heart is with my E93!
Only thing is that it's just a burden with how much heavier it is compared to the E90 and E92, and how cosmetic modifications won't look as "mean" because of the roofline and overall shape of the vert. Also, I feel like when you compare the E9X M3's to their non M counterparts, you can definitely spot out what's an M by looking at the front end; the front bumper is very different and the body is so curvy and it's very nice to look at!

However In my opinion, the F body 4 series can be kinda mistaken for an M if it isn't for the hood hump and that one extra grill flare/detail (And obviously wider body) to differentiate the two, they're both really boxy.. I feel like the new cars look fairly similar to one another! I've seen a couple of 4 series with M4 bumpers and quarterpanels, EVEN with quad exhausts.. kinda fooled me for a second. Probably just me though, but you get the gist of it.

What do you guys think of that?

[SCKOMS]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

Looking at the specs of the F430 and e9x M3, they are remarkably similar from an engine perspective. Small displacement V8, both have hp in the low 400s and torque under 300 lbs/ft. However, the driving experience should be much greater in the f-car given that it's mid-engined and in a platform dedicated to performance driving.

So you're going to give up a lot of the special feel going from the F car to any BMW. You've owned a lot of cars with a dedicated performance platform. BMWs are really nice cars, but designed around more pedestrian platforms. It really depends on what type of driver you are in this case. I drove the F80 (M3) on a track and DCT and thought it was a very capable car. Lots of torque---and yes, it goes all the way to redline. It doesn't tail off like the OP mentioned. But it's also very sterile, IMO. It's extremely capable---it's a car that unless you're a very advanced driver really needs no mods, especially with the CCBs. It's a legit buy the car one day and track it the next type of experience.

I have not tracked my own car (yet), but the car in general is a lot more tempermental. The brakes are known not to be great in stock form, especially for the track. The engine can run pretty hot. There are issues with rod bearing, that should be addressed if you're going supercharged and you might want to do anyway if you're tracking the car. You need to wind the car out to get any feel of real speed (just drove some new M cars on Saturday back to back with my e92).

The problem is that many of the cars you've owned in the past were essentially designed to be roadsters/convertibles by design. The 3 series/4 series is not that car. It's a big pig of a car. You add a supercharger to the e93 and you've not only made the car heavier overall, you've added more weight over the front wheels. Not good for the balanced handling these cars are designed for.

I think you'll be disappointed with either choice in the end. Your F430 spider weighs 3450lbs (quick search, not sure how exact the number is) and the e93 weighs just about 4000lbs. Add another, what 100lbs for a blower and plumbing?

The m3(4) is really designed to be most effective as a performance car with a fixed roof. Period. They are at their best from a performance perspective in this state. Chopping the roof looses a lot and values of the e93 supports this. F83 may be better from a weight and chassis stiffness perspective, but it's not worlds different.

Your best bet for what you're looking for are the following:
Boxster S
Alfa 4C
Lotus Elise
Corvette (C6/C7, as they have a removable targa top. C8 would also be spectacular)

With your history and wants, I would not consider the cars on your list.

Thanks. That's great feedback, but the track performance is secondary. I definitely want a convertible and a daily driver first. If ti is a capable car for the 2 or 3 HPDE days, then it checks that box too. I drove a Boxster S and really liked it, but want something a little more practical and capable for the winter too.

[anselmw]

Originally Posted by SCKOMS

Thanks. That's great feedback, but the track performance is secondary. I definitely want a convertible and a daily driver first. If ti is a capable car for the 2 or 3 HPDE days, then it checks that box too. I drove a Boxster S and really liked it, but want something a little more practical and capable for the winter too.

The specs for a ferrari F430 are not that different than a e9xm3. Driving experience for the street will be very similar in terms of NA throttle response, acceleration albeit a little slower.

I had to replace my first e90m3 when it was flooded, tried the new F80 and the small turbo lag, sound and overall feel just was not the same so I ended up buying another e90m3. Just can't replace that NA V8.

In garage I have 991.2 GT3, 01 Z3M Coupe and Macan Turbo and I can tell you that the M3 makes me smile every time I drive it. Agree with your feedback on NSX, I had similar feelings about the Nissan GTR. Super fast but so digital and almost no engagement needed to go fast.

Since the price for a e9x are not much I would just bite the bullet, pick one up and try it. If you don't like it you can sell and most likely not lose any money. Only required mods, get an exhaust, intake and tune for engine and transmission if you get DCT.

[SCKOMS]

Thanks all. The comments both her and at the M4 forum were very helpful. I decided to go with the M4 and found a new 2018 at a good price.

This way I have full factory warranty. The difference in power was also a consideration. I'm looking forward to getting my new ride!

[spiderspider]

Originally Posted by M3anest

Check out this video, it shows two heavily modified models of the cars you are deciding on. Despite the M4 being faster, the comments speaks for itself.

that reminds me, i need to mow my lawn..