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05-29-2009, 07:09 AM | #353 |
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I thought this was the focus of the initial debate, and it seems like most folks, including Footie, hold this view, so I am somewhat confused about the focus of the current debate? If it is tires, doesn't the Sporauto M3 time reflect the use of PSCs, so has BMW cheated there as well since those tires don't come stock in the US, even as an option? Or is it the alteration/fine tuning of suspension geometry? (Footie, the driver configurable damper setting in the M3 does not alter suspension geometry).
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05-29-2009, 07:39 AM | #354 | |
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The M3 time is not valid as it was done with the competition brake pads which aren't available in North America so the time is only valid for Europe. Or would be if it weren't for the tyres they used which also aren't available in North America as pointed out there by Lucid. If that's not cheating then the faster runs on Japan only wheels and rubber for the GTR are also valid. I think 99% of people will agree with me. See I can say that too and it means as much as when you say it. I think 99% of people on here will think we have little better to be doing than discussing the GTR on an M3 site. Every manufacturer cheats to get their ring times. Magazines are no better. In the US all the magazines quoted 0-60mph times are nonsense. They don't measure the first foot which doesn't sound like a lot but ends up knocking around 0.5secs off the time. Car and Driver fessed up to this 2 months ago and now in the reviews show both times and even call it the real time and the cheating time (mostly). Everyone cheats to make headlines. And from day 1 it has been known that every GTR has more than the quoted bhp. They're hand built engines so they'll never get them exactly the same so err on the side of more power. I haven't read of any of them actually putting out less than 500bhp. |
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05-29-2009, 08:40 AM | #355 | |
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You do have a point about the PSCs on the M3, after asking the dealer it officially is only available as an option, though some examples have arrived on just the 19" upgrade. So one could argue that the different rims and tyres could be excused in the 7:26 time but in my opinion the suspension tweaks can not be excused. The suspension tweaks and rims + rubber could together account for up to 6 seconds but it could equally be less, without a proper comparison test between the two this can only be guess work. There is no doubt at all in my mind that Nissan were totally upfront about their lap times and the cars involved, the problem was that Porsche used their own creditability to put enough doubt in peoples minds and it worked on a hell of a lot of them, but in my opinion the time Horst did has backfired on Porsche big time, they got their own 997turbo to lap as officially quoted but were a full 16 seconds slower than Horst, I smelt BS even before Sportauto's supertest it's just a shame it took so many to also realize this. I said this a few posts ago but the GTR is another outstanding car in the same mold as the Bugatti Veyron. But I still wouldn't buy one. |
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05-29-2009, 11:09 AM | #356 | |
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So for a car like the Viper ACR where the suspension has a wide range of adjustment to dial in the car for a partiular track, your argument would be that it must be run at the ring in whatever configuration its sent to the dealer in? Seriously??? Come on Swamp, the car was designed to have those parameters varied to achieve maximum performance on the track. That one of the things you pay for, and there is nothing wrong with using that feature in the pursuit of lap times. There is no way 99% of people agree with you on this one. |
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05-29-2009, 01:17 PM | #357 | |
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If you believe a published ring time should represent what a car driven off a dealer lot and onto the ring ( with no adjustments to suspension geometry or aerodynamics ) can run, then it's cheating. If you believe a published ring time should represent the ultimate limit of the car, with a race team making suspension alterations on an iterative basis, and equipped with a $25,000 wheel & tire package only available in one country, then it's perfectly acceptable.
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05-29-2009, 01:51 PM | #358 | |
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Also, just to be clear I do not agree fully with getting times with options as as been done with the M3. The PSC+ tires are really marginally cheating as well. The difference is that you can get those tires on a showroom stock car, but not in all countries. Like I said, that is sort of pushing the limit IMO. AFAIR the published M3 Ring time used PSC+ tires but did not use the optional, never factory installed BMW track brake pads. If I am wrong on this and they did use those pads then that is cheating, by the definition of "showroom stock". However, BMW has also never made that statement itself about Sportauto's times. Also it is only cheating by Sportauto not BMW since they did not orchestrate a huge factory run effort and publish a factory lap time. That is a HUGE difference. Sportauto has great standards but I expect even more from an OEM. |
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05-29-2009, 01:59 PM | #359 | ||
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Wrong, wrong, wrong. Many manufacturers don't even bother posting any ring time - they let Sportauto do it. See my post just above on that. Quote:
Also the time difference for a sub 5 second 0-60 car based on the 1 foot thing is significant but is more like 0.3-0.4 not 0.5. That is more nonsense. The variation in engine outputs using modern CNC manufacturing with very precise tolerance control can be below 1%. That is obvious when you think about the SAE Certified Power standard (not that Nissan would or could meet this particular standard). Furthermore, the variation in engine power comes primary from part size variation and the resulting tolerance stack up, not from variations in assembly. And trust me, the GT-R engine components are manufactured with very top of the line equipment, as good or better than the equipment used for high volume engines. It seems you are arguing that Nissan needs and extra 50 hp to insure no car makes below 480 hp and that is truly nonsense. The car is very purposefully under rated and given the same hp spec as the car it was meant to dethrone. Last edited by swamp2; 05-29-2009 at 03:02 PM.. |
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05-29-2009, 02:59 PM | #361 | |
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I suppose I just decided I needed a change. Back to the topic at hand. The ACR needs a multitude of adjustments on any track so technically it's times on any track should be excluded from the records. Another thing, is it known whether the ZR1 was adjusted in a similar manner by GM? Just because they haven't said anything doesn't mean it isn't so. |
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05-29-2009, 03:04 PM | #362 | |
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05-29-2009, 03:46 PM | #363 | |
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05-29-2009, 03:51 PM | #364 | |
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Nissan has had a long history at the ring and using it as a PR exercise so we knew that they of all people would be shouting from the roof tops about the ring time they achieved, but I personally think GM have been pretty active as well lately with the CTS-V and ZR1. You can't excuse the other just because they don't capitalise on it as well as Nissan do, if you class tweaking the suspension as cheating then this will probably include quite a few exceptional times. Last edited by footie; 05-29-2009 at 05:11 PM.. |
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05-29-2009, 04:22 PM | #365 | |
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The ACR is a stripped down, race car that you can drive on the street - if you're crazy enough. Dialing in the suspension and spoiler kinda fall in line with the mission of this car. The GTR has every electronic aid known to man. It is the PS3 experience brought to life - even uses a multi-function display designed by Sony. To have to manually dial in the suspension on a car with electronics this advanced seems pretty counter intuitive. Yeah it can be done, but should you really have to on a car like this?
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05-29-2009, 05:20 PM | #366 | |
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There is no dialing in the ZR1 suspension. It is magneto-rheological fluid-based actuators, four wheel-to-body displacement sensors, and an onboard computer. The system responds in one millisecond. It is what it is. |
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05-29-2009, 05:38 PM | #367 | ||
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If you can adjust the suspension and are of the opinion that as long as nothing is changed in the process then anything along this line is fair game. I know swamp doesn't agree with this approach but at least Nissan have been forthcoming about this even though I am sure that other factory times are done this same way. Quote:
Oh, and yes the GTR is loaded with some amazing technology which has added a lot to it's weight which is counter productive but give it's weight and output there would be no other way for such a heavy car to lap the way it does. It's the totally opposite approach to performance that the British engineers and Porsche chose and I suppose it's a very Japanese way but does that mean it's wrong, surely in the end it's the results that should speak for themselves and in this the Japanese way has a lot of benefits. |
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05-29-2009, 06:04 PM | #368 | |
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It is amazing how different the TT thus equipped can be made to behave by one a software tweak, which I might add is far harder to tell without actually driving it. |
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05-29-2009, 06:23 PM | #369 |
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You think GM made a software upgrade for the magnetic ride control. Thats funny. You have way more respect for GM than I thought.
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05-29-2009, 09:43 PM | #370 | |
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Garr. The original 7.29 time was not using the VSpec tyres and wheels. It's only the later faster times that used those options. Someone keeps saying it here (I think it's you) and time and again Footie has pointed out that it was on the std tyre/wheel combo. I would have to see the original posting by Nissan on the ring time but "Showroom Stock" sounds like North American wording and not something that Nissan would say (unless it's Nissan North America of course). I suspect some other wording but can't confirm that as I haven't seen it. And how come it's ok for the ACR to adjust suspension and not the GTR??? Just becuase it looks like a race car and is fairly well stripped out doesn't change the fact that it's sold as a street car so therefore it goes by the same set of rules as everyone else. According to you and Swamp the times are invalid as it was altered. (and it looks ridiculous especially in snot green) P.S. Do we get a prize if this is the longest post ever on here???? |
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05-29-2009, 11:03 PM | #371 | |
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Can anyone locate the relevant quote or web page? |
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05-29-2009, 11:46 PM | #372 | |
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05-30-2009, 04:18 AM | #373 | |
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05-30-2009, 07:00 AM | #374 | |
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However, if the new time was in a 2010 spec car and that's what you get if you buy one then it is valid. Changes throughout model years are normal enough even if this one was done at the speed they make them on motorbikes. The fact that ECU changes etc don't matter if they are included in the 2010 model for everyone. Shite. Gotta go. Bell coming to hook up the tv, internet and phone in the new house. Bottom line. Using non std wheels/tyres is cheating. Using a 2010 model is not if it's the model everyone buys. I have no idea which is the case. God I hate painting |
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