Whos running Mobil 1 0w-40?

[dparm]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Have they changed? IIRC they used to use a different Pentosin to Getrag.

They use the "older" FFL-2 I believe, but the newer fluid we use is considered backward compatible.

Pentosin has said that FFL-4 replaced FFL-3, and FFL-3 replaced FFL-2. You can therefore run 4 in place of 3 or 2, or 3 in place of 2.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by dparm

They use the "older" FFL-2 I believe, but the newer fluid we use is considered backward compatible.
Pentosin has said that FFL-4 replaced FFL-3, and FFL-3 replaced FFL-2. You can therefore run 4 in place of 3 or 2, or 3 in place of 2.

Ah OK I seem to recall reading that they used a previous gen fluid which required changing as part of the service schedule.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by checkmate

Anybody know if the Weismann cars use 10W-60 on their N/A motors?

I'm curious about the proliferation of M engines and respective oil recommendations

Actualy it's Wiesmann ! And Wiesmann uses ///M S65 engines so maybe it's a good idea about a search what oil they use that saying Wiesmann is a very small company with small built numbers !
Here you can see the S65 engine in the car > https://www.wiesmann.com/de/modelle/gt-mf4-cs

[dparm]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

So the question is: why would the M division choose a 10W60 oil if it gave poor reliability as well as less BHP, less MPG and cost more than a 0W40?
It is simply beyond credible that BMW could be that stupid to use the wrong oil for over a decade.

You make it sound like BMW engineers are only going to pick the absolute "best" for every situation. They don't. They have limitations imposed on them by supervisors, management, vendors, etc. Their choices are a compromise, like almost everything else in life (irregardless of what you read in their marketing material or promotional videos). In the case of engine lubrication, there are countless factors playing in such as the Castrol agreement, supplier recommendations, bean counters worrying about high maintenance costs, etc.

While I generally trust BMW's engineers, you do have to remember that there are behind-the-scenes influences that none of us are privy to.

[JRV]

Originally Posted by dparm

You make it sound like BMW engineers are only going to pick the absolute "best" for every situation. They don't. They have limitations imposed on them by supervisors, management, vendors, etc. Their choices are a compromise, like almost everything else in life (irregardless of what you read in their marketing material or promotional videos). In the case of engine lubrication, there are countless factors playing in such as the Castrol agreement, supplier recommendations, bean counters worrying about high maintenance costs, etc.

While I generally trust BMW's engineers, you do have to remember that there are behind-the-scenes influences that none of us are privy to.

I think SFPs point is that they can have all their back room secret arrangements all they want but why did they choose 10W-60 that has actually damn good cold flow properties for its weight. BMW and Castrol could have chosen another specific weight other than 10W-60 if tight bearing clearance was an issue that has plagued their M cars. This is where i am torn and wonder if BMW was weighing their pros and cons. It's as if they had to find a middle ground where oil film and viscosity was thick enough to prevent metal to metal contact at operating temps but good enough for cold starts. This is just my opinion because I have a hard time imagining for 3 generations they could not figure this out. I think it was a compromise...with that said I dont think 0W-40 will hurt if you dont drive it like you stole it for hours one end. In fact, i think it makes sense, especially if you have winters that go below freezing. Again, just my opinion...

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by JRV

I think SFPs point is that they can have all their back room secret arrangements all they want but why did they choose 10W-60 that has actually damn good cold flow properties for its weight. BMW and Castrol could have chosen another specific weight other than 10W-60 if tight bearing clearance was an issue that has plagued their M cars. This is where i am torn and wonder if BMW was weighing their pros and cons. It's as if they had to find a middle ground where oil film and viscosity was thick enough to prevent metal to metal contact at operating temps but good enough for cold starts. This is just my opinion because I have a hard time imagining for 3 generations they could not figure this out. I think it was a compromise...with that said I dont think 0W-40 will hurt if you dont drive it like you stole it for hours one end. In fact, i think it makes sense, especially if you have winters that go below freezing. Again, just my opinion...

There could be a number of factors that lead to the choice of the heavier weight oil. The primary probably being its ability to survive longer oil change intervals.

To a lesser degree, and if you like conspiracy theories, Castrol probably spent a lot of money R&Ding TWS 10W-60. Castrol was fortunate and benefited greatly from BMWs involvement in that product.

Its already been said, but there was no doubt a compromise made when BMW chose a "factory fill" oil. An oil that satisfied the engineers and the bean counters but maybe was not the "ideal" solution given a certain perspective.

[Billj747]

I wonder if SFP ever changes the lifetime fluid in his DCT or coolant, and if he replaces his tires with the same model that BMW equipped from the factory?

[JRV]

Originally Posted by JEllis

There could be a number of factors that lead to the choice of the heavier weight oil. The primary probably being its ability to survive longer oil change intervals.

To a lesser degree, and if you like conspiracy theories, Castrol probably spent a lot of money R&Ding TWS 10W-60. Castrol was fortunate and benefited greatly from BMWs involvement in that product.

Its already been said, but there was no doubt a compromise made when BMW chose a "factory fill" oil. An oil that satisfied the engineers and the bean counters but maybe was not the "ideal" solution given a certain perspective.

Yea it's definitely possible they chose it due to the extended drain as well. How often do M1 users have to top off a quart? I know on TWS it's about 3-4k miles for me but I only redline about once or twice a drive and it's daily driven.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by JRV

Yea it's definitely possible they chose it due to the extended drain as well. How often do M1 users have to top off a quart? I know on TWS it's about 3-4k miles for me but I only redline about once or twice a drive and it's daily driven.

I loose 1/2 qt in 4k miles. That is when i change it so I never top off.

[W///]

Originally Posted by JRV

Yea it's definitely possible they chose it due to the extended drain as well. How often do M1 users have to top off a quart? I know on TWS it's about 3-4k miles for me but I only redline about once or twice a drive and it's daily driven.

After beating it all summer and 4000 miles, I had to add half a quart. FYI, I didn't have to add any with 10W60 in 7500 miles, but I did drive much more aggressively in that stint with M1

[dparm]

Worth noting is that the switch to 10w60 happened right around the time they moved everyone to 15k change intervals, and now suddenly they're back to allowing the "heavy" 5w30 and changed the new cars back to 10k. That's no coincidence.

[M3-S65]

Originally Posted by StealYourFace

So if you are under warranty still, and switch to m1 0w40, and have an engine failure, is part of bmw's protocol to have the oil tested to make sure it is 10w60? Honest question, I'm not being a smart ass.

And also, if that's the case, couldn't you simply store some used 10w60 and put it in the motor after it failed? Shady, yes, not something I would encourage based on ethics.

And finally, if the motor did indeed fail hypothetically with 0w40 in it, and they drained it without you present, how could they prove it came from your car? It's like having drug test and not being there to sign the seal on the up after you pee.

I guess what I am saying is, "I don't want to switch because I want my warranty in place if something bad happens" doesn't seem like a good reason not to change. Just like getting denied for something like tracking your car or having a non oem exhaust.

Again, honest questions, not trying to be a shit disturber.

Well lets see. Devils advocate here....Let's think like an insurance company...greedy and unethical. If I was a major company, who does not want to give up a 25k engine, than I am going to require proof of ongoing oil changes and the brand of said oil. You cant tell them...yea, I changed it myself with no documented proof and demand a new engine.

Plus, they wont analyze the oil in it, they are looking for a way out. They will simply demand proof of regular oil changes and the brand of oil. If you cannot produce receipts and proof...why should they change the motor? They don't care what is in it at time of blowing up.

Plus, if your still on their free maintenance deal than you are still getting your oil changed by them. If you request the Mobil the service rep will not recommend and make note you did not take their recommendation. If your on their free program and your not getting the free oil changes, and you show up with a blown engine they will wonder why you weren't getting the free oil changes? did you change it at all? Where is the documented proof?

Also, as you mentioned "Just like getting denied for something like tracking your car or having a non oem exhaust" Oil is directly related to the health of an engine they could argue. Exhausts are not, and its harder to prove cause and effect on their part, plus there is no need for proof of ongoing "anything" with an exhaust. You simply swap it out when you go in.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by JEllis

There could be a number of factors that lead to the choice of the heavier weight oil. The primary probably being its ability to survive longer oil change intervals.

Is it not the case that all fully synthetic oils are exceptionally good at surviving long OCIs? The viscosity enters into the equation only in the VIs ability to resist shearing over that interval?

Originally Posted by JEllis

To a lesser degree, and if you like conspiracy theories, Castrol probably spent a lot of money R&Ding TWS 10W-60. Castrol was fortunate and benefited greatly from BMWs involvement in that product.
Its already been said, but there was no doubt a compromise made when BMW chose a "factory fill" oil. An oil that satisfied the engineers and the bean counters but maybe was not the "ideal" solution given a certain perspective.

But why choose Castrol's 10W60 over their 0W40? It costs more and if it did indeed reduce reliability that would cost BMW more $$$ too....where is the bean counter benefit? Castrol themselves don't care, they will supply whatever oil they are told to (that is, if they want to keep their supply contract).

Originally Posted by dparm

Worth noting is that the switch to 10w60 happened right around the time they moved everyone to 15k change intervals, and now suddenly they're back to allowing the "heavy" 5w30 and changed the new cars back to 10k. That's no coincidence.

These are changes for the new turbo charged engines are they not? I'm guessing they designed these (lower reving) engines to run with this oil and that the shorter OCI may have something to do with the extra thermal loads that the turbos produces.

[checkmate]

Originally Posted by dparm

Worth noting is that the switch to 10w60 happened right around the time they moved everyone to 15k change intervals, and now suddenly they're back to allowing the "heavy" 5w30 and changed the new cars back to 10k. That's no coincidence.

Dparm-the change to 5W-30 is due to the proliferation of turbo M engines. Doesn't make sense to use 10W-60 on these new non-N/A cars.

[Petros]

Originally Posted by checkmate

Dparm-the change to 5W-30 is due to the proliferation of turbo M engines. Doesn't make sense to use 10W-60 on these new non-N/A cars.

Why? What makes the turbo engines so different from the NA engines that they require drastically different oil?

[JRV]

Originally Posted by W///

After beating it all summer and 4000 miles, I had to add half a quart. FYI, I didn't have to add any with 10W60 in 7500 miles, but I did drive much more aggressively in that stint with M1

Sorry I just couldn't resist

[Petros]

Originally Posted by JRV

Sorry I just couldn't resist

He drives an M3, so naturally he doesn't have any friends. What can he do? A man needs relief every once in a while

[W///]

Originally Posted by JRV

Sorry I just couldn't resist

Originally Posted by Petros

He drives an M3, so naturally he doesn't have any friends. What can he do? A man needs relief every once in a while

Because M1 provides more lubrication

What I do in the summer:

[Rupes]

Originally Posted by W///

Did this guys engine blow, or did he just replace the bearings because they had high lead from his oil analysis?

If you buy into the fact that 0w-40 is better for the bearings and you were to switch to M1 0w-40 with similar looking bearings, could you theoretically continue to drive on bearings that looked this bad for quite some time? (Lots of "bearings" in there).

In other words, even if some damage has been done to the bearings could a lighter oil like M1 maintain what was left of the bearings for a significant period of time, or would they still need to be replaced to avoid catastrophe?

[W///]

Originally Posted by Rupes

Did this guys engine blow, or did he just replace the bearings because they had high lead from his oil analysis?

If you buy into the fact that 0w-40 is better for the bearings and you were to switch to M1 0w-40 with similar looking bearings, could you theoretically continue to drive on bearings that looked this bad for quite some time? (Lots of "bearings" in there).

In other words, even if some damage has been done to the bearings could a lighter oil like M1 maintain what was left of the bearings for a significant period of time, or would they still need to be replaced to avoid catastrophe?

One of his oil reports came back with 81 lead ppm (it's in the same post), by then it's probably a little too late to do anything but change bearings (IMHO). I don't know if his engine blew up or not, but needless to say those bearings were shot. If it didn't blow up, who knows how much longer that engine would have survived, regardless whether he used 10W60 or lighter oil. I'm going to leave the pros like kawasaki00 to answer that question though.

In my case, I went from 9 ppm lead over 5500 mile interval on 10W60. As soon as I changed to M1, it went down to 3ppi over 5000 miles. I wouldn't be surprised my bearings have some sort of wear over the 72k miles it ran on 10W60, and I'm hoping the M1 prolongs it a bit more. If I see my lead and copper drastically increases, then I know it's time to stop driving it and change the bearings. Until then, I'm staying put. Just my 2 cents.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Rupes

Did this guys engine blow, or did he just replace the bearings because they had high lead from his oil analysis?

If you buy into the fact that 0w-40 is better for the bearings and you were to switch to M1 0w-40 with similar looking bearings, could you theoretically continue to drive on bearings that looked this bad for quite some time? (Lots of "bearings" in there).

In other words, even if some damage has been done to the bearings could a lighter oil like M1 maintain what was left of the bearings for a significant period of time, or would they still need to be replaced to avoid catastrophe?

That number 8 looks pretty bad, not sure if anything would save it.
Lets just say for the argument that the lighter oil does stop the bearing wear. If that is the case it would continue to run for a long time. It would naturally wear some but not because of a clearance and or starvation problem. I started running it loooong ago so we will see what mine look like after 75-80k miles. That is the point I have decided to pull it apart... If I still have it.

[G80indy]

I look forward to reading about the results