Scary rod bearing thread s85

[bigtracing]

should have added this awhile ago car was a daily driver its whole life no tracking. basically a highway queen. if this adds anything

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Longwong

I just put faith in M engineers or any other experts. Not that they cant make a mistake but this engine was certainly not "new" They learned from the e46, then the e60 s85 so I just feel that they changed the bearing part number for a reason and did not change the oil recommendation so they must have known that this is the best combination because if you look at what their motive is-having bearing problems certainly does not look good so I would think given whatever constraints, this was the best oil recommendation taking into account everything including engine protection for people who choose to drive the car hard, at high revs and at high temps

One thing that is potentially being missed here is that economic considerations strongly play into the big company decisions when dealing with a product situation long after the final design is in place and being sold. It most definitely is not solely based on what is the "best" path in the engineering sense that wins in all cases as many will tell you. I'm not saying that is the case with the s65 but just pointing out the conundrum a company can find itself in at times with a given product. 25+ years ago I was a lead engineer for a printer product at a large corporation, and one of our released products had a major part failing. Surprisingly to me at the time, what drove the decision from a high level management position to fix the current production and all produced printers in stock or in customer's hands was what the predictions were for the failure of the part. It was determined that the vast majority would fail after the warranty period was over, and so nothing was changed except for newly built printers.

What's rewarded is what gets done -- one of the most useful age-old sayings I've followed for decades. If you push your management team to meet cost projections no matter what, don't be surprised with some amazingly stupid paths they will choose at times. In any event, that was a great learning experience for me at the time and useful many years into the future building my own business over the past 20 years.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Surely, when you buy a car from BMW approved, there should be some kind of warranty that comes with the car - 12 months or mileage. Hopefully, if that's the case they should take care of the rebuild/repair without you being out of pocket. All BMW approved used cars in Australia are sold with 12-month warranty. Hope things work out for you ... I really feel for your pain. It's not pretty.

As I said in one of the other posts, bearings are regarded as a wear component just like brakes etc., so it's hard to raise a case as a bearing failure and a manufacturing/design issue. Unless you can show a pattern with hard data. This is my opinion. Explore everything before you put the hand in the pocket. Good luck.

Main bearings are NOT considered a wear item by any car manufacturer. They are meant to last the service life of the engine with proper maintenance....... Are you suggesting the S65's service life is as short as 100,000KM? If you are suggesting this, that is kind of foolish!

Main and rod bearings are one of the least common issues for most of the engines I take apart! I don't think you will find in any manufacturers extended maintenance plans, a mileage that they suggest changing main and rod bearings. Main and rod bearings are to be done during an engine rebuild, that is it!

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Main bearings are NOT considered a wear item by any car manufacturer. They are meant to last the service life of the engine with proper maintenance....... Are you suggesting the S65's service life is as short as 100,000KM? Of you are that is kind of foolish! Main and rod bearings are one of the least common issues for most of the engines I take apart!

I am not an expert of any kind ... I was repeating what the service manager told me when I raised this a few weeks ago, and supported it by showing this thread. I was trying to see what their take was given I am out of warranty and also don't get my car serviced through them. I do it myself. That's all.

[bigtracing]

^ my service manager told me when one time on my last car when I wanted to get my ac vents replaced cause the adjusters all fell off. he sais he can't replace them under warranty cause there wear items likw wiper blades. I laughed at him a lot. never beleive those idiots for a minute.


there are plenty of other cars that make way more power that never have any kind bottom end problems.

currently sitting in the truck with the M behind me with my dad constantly reminding me that he's never seen an lS motor blow a rod bearing that premature.

[VCMpower]

Lets just not lose sight of 65k+ s65's off the line by M. As opposed to say <7k Nissan gtrs sold. These are huge production numbers for a motor like this. Things will happen. What percentage are we at now? I have 2 M's. My motor should be taken out at 700km on odo? Before my first oil service? Just come out and make claim to this severity and get some backing. I feel sorry for those who experience this , but 97k miles on first plugs.... Out.

[HeartMD]

Shit now I realize I have two options.
1) sell my car now that it is at 26K and "healthy"
2) contact dinan and get myself a stoker with appropriate clearnances.

A question for all? It being said that not waiting for the oil temps to rise sufficiently being a problem, now would it be to any benefit to just let the car idle for abit on cold start to get the engine oil temp up some what before taking the car to the road? kinda like old school warming up the engine. Sorry I am not very automotive savy and have learnt a great deal from just reading throught this entire thread.

[VCMpower]

Originally Posted by HeartMD

Shit now I realize I have two options.
1) sell my car now that it is at 26K and "healthy"
2) contact dinan and get myself a stoker with appropriate clearnances.

"Healthy" or terminally ill from birth? Lol

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

I am not an expert of any kind ... I was repeating what the service manager told me when I raised this a few weeks ago, and supported it by showing this thread. I was trying to see what their take was given I am out of warranty and also don't get my car serviced through them. I do it myself. That's all.

Please don't take the word of the service manager...... They usually say things like that because they don't want the hassle of a warranty claim on an S65, something which would require some effort on his part!

Trust me, main/rod bearings are not wear items like brakes and wipers, regardless of what your service manager tells you!

[HeartMD]

Originally Posted by VCMpower

"Healthy" or terminally ill from birth? Lol

[VCMpower]

Originally Posted by HeartMD

Shit now I realize I have two options.
1) sell my car now that it is at 26K and "healthy"
2) contact dinan and get myself a stoker with appropriate clearnances.

A question for all? It being said that not waiting for the oil temps to rise sufficiently being a problem, now would it be to any benefit to just let the car idle for abit on cold start to get the engine oil temp up some what before taking the car to the road? kinda like old school warming up the engine. Sorry I am not very automotive savy and have learnt a great deal from just reading throught this entire thread.

Certainly is in your favor to give it a couple minutes warm up. I have always done this on all of my cars. Aside from clearance opinions , oil weight opinions, warm up will be your best defense.

[HeartMD]

Originally Posted by VCMpower

Certainly is in your favor to give it a couple minutes warm up. I have always done this on all of my cars. Aside from clearance opinions , oil weight opinions, warm up will be your best defense.

Will DO, thanks man.

[W///]

Originally Posted by HeartMD

Shit now I realize I have two options.
1) sell my car now that it is at 26K and "healthy"
2) contact dinan and get myself a stoker with appropriate clearnances.

A question for all? It being said that not waiting for the oil temps to rise sufficiently being a problem, now would it be to any benefit to just let the car idle for abit on cold start to get the engine oil temp up some what before taking the car to the road? kinda like old school warming up the engine. Sorry I am not very automotive savy and have learnt a great deal from just reading throught this entire thread.

Planning to run thinner oil.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Please don't take the word of the service manager...... They usually say things like that because they don't want the hassle of a warranty claim on an S65, something which would require some effort on his part!

Trust me, main/rod bearings are not wear items like brakes and wipers, regardless of what your service manager tells you!

I am not questioning what you're saying

[s65e90]

Originally Posted by HeartMD

Shit now I realize I have two options.
1) sell my car now that it is at 26K and "healthy"
2) contact dinan and get myself a stoker with appropriate clearnances.

A question for all? It being said that not waiting for the oil temps to rise sufficiently being a problem, now would it be to any benefit to just let the car idle for abit on cold start to get the engine oil temp up some what before taking the car to the road? kinda like old school warming up the engine. Sorry I am not very automotive savy and have learnt a great deal from just reading throught this entire thread.

No just get in and drive it. Even states in the manual to drive and take it easy cold versus idling.

[bigtracing]

got the car home. first thing this morning went and pulled the oil filter out to see what my next plan of action is. well the filter was packed with metal! including magnetic metal which indicates crank or rod material. I will be starting a new thread with pictures and stuff

[bigtracing]

got the car home. first thing this morning went and pulled the oil filter out to see what my next plan of action is. well the filter was packed with metal! including magnetic metal which indicates crank or rod material. I will be starting a new thread with pictures and stuff

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by VCMpower

Certainly is in your favor to give it a couple minutes warm up. I have always done this on all of my cars. Aside from clearance opinions , oil weight opinions, warm up will be your best defense.

I agree on the warm-up comment, but I feel that driving the car gently is better than idling, idling is a good way to lead to fuel dilution of the oil.

As for the opinion part, oil clearances myself and others are giving are not opinions....... They are the recommendation of the manufacturer of the bearings for the S65....... Clevite!

I will give you credit on the oil viscosity opinion, I just feel with clearances so tight that a 60WT oil don't make sense. Heavy weight oils are generally used in engines where clearances are greater not tighter. A 40WT oil (the Mobil 1 0W40 is actually a very heavy 40, almost a 45 according to the viscosity charts) should have lots of viscosity for the operating parameters of this engine. And besides, the majority of us are recommending it for not only the viscosity at operating temperature, but it's ability to flow before it reaches those temps which will be a great benefit to bearings where clearances are very tight!

Originally Posted by aussiem3

I am not questioning what you're saying

Nor am I implying that you are...... Just making the statement to you as someone who works on engines daily!

Originally Posted by bigtracing

got the car home. first thing this morning went and pulled the oil filter out to see what my next plan of action is. well the filter was packed with metal! including magnetic metal which indicates crank or rod material. I will be starting a new thread with pictures and stuff

That is just terrible, albeit expected! I hope the dealer comes through for you..... The sad thing about it is that if the engine is rebuilt to OEM clearances or is replaced with a new/rebuilt long block after a few years it will most likely suffer the same fate!

The Ideal thing would be to get the dealer to cover the repairs and to be able to convince them to have the crank machined to give the engine some proper oil clearance! Even if you had to pay for the machine work on the crank out of pocket, it would be very worthwhile if you intend to keep the car for a while!

If the dealer don't cover your repair, ensure that you add some clearance to the mains and rods while you are having the engine repaired. Feel free to PM me for questions!

[Longwong]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

I agree on the warm-up comment, but I feel that driving the car gently is better than idling, idling is a good way to lead to fuel dilution of the oil.

As for the opinion part, oil clearances myself and others are giving are not opinions....... They are the recommendation of the manufacturer of the bearings for the S65....... Clevite!

I will give you credit on the oil viscosity opinion, I just feel with clearances so tight that a 60WT oil don't make sense. Heavy weight oils are generally used in engines where clearances are greater not tighter. A 40WT oil (the Mobil 1 0W40 is actually a very heavy 40, almost a 45 according to the viscosity charts) should have lots of viscosity for the operating parameters of this engine. And besides, the majority of us are recommending it for not only the viscosity at operating temperature, but it's ability to flow before it reaches those temps which will be a great benefit to bearings where clearances are very tight!





Nor am I implying that you are...... Just making the statement to you as someone who works on engines daily!




That is just terrible, albeit expected! I hope the dealer comes through for you..... The sad thing about it is that if the engine is rebuilt to OEM clearances or is replaced with a new/rebuilt long block after a few years it will most likely suffer the same fate!

The Ideal thing would be to get the dealer to cover the repairs and to be able to convince them to have the crank machined to give the engine some proper oil clearance! Even if you had to pay for the machine work on the crank out of pocket, it would be very worthwhile if you intend to keep the car for a while!

If the dealer don't cover your repair, ensure that you add some clearance to the mains and rods while you are having the engine repaired. Feel free to PM me for questions!

This is simply false. If the engine is replaced or rebuilt to spec "it will most likely have the same fate"? Given what vcm said that 65k engines are produced, and given 99 percent do not have this problem or more, than what you say is simply way off.

We are blowing this issue up WAY out of proportion

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Longwong

This is simply false. If the engine is replaced or rebuilt to spec "it will most likely have the same fate"? Given what vcm said that 65k engines are produced, and given 99 percent do not have this problem or more, than what you say is simply way off.

We are blowing this issue up WAY out of proportion

[bigtracing]

a $70k car with a $20k motor that only makes 414 hp should never spin a rod bearing! if you think ppl are blowing this up you need to get your head checked. bmw should never have produced a street car with a motor this tight.


I am going to pull the motor in the coming week and get the pan off and see what the conplete damage report is. then decide from there. going to keep this car forever so may buy a new long block and have it changed to "looser" specs

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by Longwong

This is simply false. If the engine is replaced or rebuilt to spec "it will most likely have the same fate"? Given what vcm said that 65k engines are produced, and given 99 percent do not have this problem or more, than what you say is simply way off.

We are blowing this issue up WAY out of proportion

I don't quite know how to put my finger on you???!!! You start a thread pointing to a possible issue with bearings in the S85 which just happen to use the same part # for bearings and rods and use the same specs for oil clearance.

Let me give you a scenario that could be very real since I build engines for a living:

You come to me with your S65 and want me to replace your rod bearings as preventative maintenance...... I tell you that I don't have any particular experience with the S65 but take the work none-the-less. I take the engine apart and notice the rod bearings have considerable wear for the mileage. Because I am a professional, I pull a couple rods and measure them, then mic the crank journals. I find that the clearance is around 0.001" since I feel this is way too tight I search for oversize bearings and soon realize there are none available for this engine. At this point I give you a call and recommend that I send your crankshaft out so that I can have the journals sized since I feel that your clearances are too tight and your engine will not last with these clearances nor will I guarantee my work putting it together like this.

So would you go against the thoughts of an engine builder or make the decision in your own that the engine is OK?!

As for VCMpower's comments, he may have a point, but, not all S65s are on the Fourms, and many have low mileage on them so we can't get an accurate indication of the engines reliability yet.

There is no fear mongering or blowing the issue out of proportion going on here, just a bunch of guys trying to give the community good information based on experience in the field!

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

+1

Originally Posted by bigtracing

a $70k car with a $20k motor that only makes 414 hp should never spin a rod bearing! if you think ppl are blowing this up you need to get your head checked. bmw should never have produced a street car with a motor this tight.


I am going to pull the motor in the coming week and get the pan off and see what the conplete damage report is. then decide from there. going to keep this car forever so may buy a new long block and have it changed to "looser" specs

You sir are correct on both accounts!

Look into building yourself a stroker....... It will probably be cheaper for you to go that route than to buy a new long block. Plus, you will have the opportunity to put better rods in which will be a plus to stopping deformation of the big end and will ensure constant clearances at high RPM!