Scary rod bearing thread s85

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by mtbkr31

The oil pressure during idle after driving the car for over 30 miles in mixed highway and city is around 32 +- 1 psi.

While in 6th gear (I have a manual) at around 3200 rpm oil pressure is around 66 or so psi.

Thanks for the info.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by mtbkr31

The oil pressure during idle after driving the car for over 30 miles in mixed highway and city is around 32 +- 1 psi.

While in 6th gear (I have a manual) at around 3200 rpm oil pressure is around 66 or so psi.

That is lots of oil pressure for those particular RPM's

I will have to install a gauge on my car when I do the stroker with added clearance on the bearings just to compare!

Would you mind telling us what the max oil pressure you see is at redline with warm oil? And what pressure is on a cold start(should be on the relief)?

[aussiem3]

Penrite is a highly respected Australian company. Their page recommends 10w-70 for the M3, but they also have 5w-60 amongst the engine oils. They are all SN. What's your takes on this.

Penrite 5w-60
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/product...d_products=281

Penrite 10w-70
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/product...d_viscosity=13

Penrite 0w-50
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/product...id_viscosity=4

[Leonardo629]

Posted this on bitog, but here it is

TIS says oil pressure should be between 4-6 bar during operation, so I guess as long as you are in that operating range, you are fine.

I also noted 66 psi is barely higher than 4 bar, which is the low end of operating oil pressure.

[VCMpower]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Penrite is a highly respected Australian company. Their page recommends 10w-70 for the M3, but they also have 5w-60 amongst the engine oils. They are all SN. What's your takes on this.

Penrite 5w-60
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/product...id_viscosity=8

Penrite 10w-70
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/product...d_viscosity=13

Penrite 0w-50
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/product...id_viscosity=4

10w70! Oh my , I can't wait to see where this goes. Lol

[Longwong]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Driving the way you do puts you more at risk using stock clearance, not less as you're thinking. Here's the way our shop explained it to the customer whose engine clearance was measured.

The stock BMW clearance is fine for the guy who drives the car as a grocery getter. It's not OK for the guy who is running 10-10ths all the time. For the guy who short shifts 90% of the time and occastionally sees 8400, stock clearance is fine. But for the guy who lives at 8400 all the time, you need the extra clearance. The customer took the advice, and added the extra clearance.

It's the same thing kawasaki is saying...just a different way of saying it.

You are not accounting for the fact at more intense driving the oil is getting much hotter and thus much thinner which is the entire point of why everyone is saying using a thinner oil for people who don't get the oil up as hot as a guy driving the car hard. So given the oil gets much hotter and thus acts as a much less viscous and thus more effectively lubricates those tight clearance areas in the bearings

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by Longwong

You are not accounting for the fact at more intense driving the oil is getting much hotter and thus much thinner which is the entire point of why everyone is saying using a thinner oil for people who don't get the oil up as hot as a guy driving the car hard. So given the oil gets much hotter and thus acts as a much less viscous and thus more effectively lubricates those tight clearance areas in the bearings

... ... ...

[e92zero]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

One would more than likely see a pressure drop if that happens. Most gauges really dont react fast enough to see these drops in pressure. A logging system with a 100hz record rate might pick it up.
That being said it is usually never a problem with street engines. The oiling system is USUALLY way overkill for what it needs to acomplish. The only way to get a idea is to install a flow meter to measure oil flow inline but it is hard to do in a wet sump engine. That and the fact a good meter is usually a thousand dollars and then you have to have the aquisition system. This engine makes no torque anyway, it is a short stroke motor so there is not going to be much bore deformation with the NA stuff. FI might be different but I cant say for sure.
If you want my take on what is happening it is this. Imagine a garden hose that you pinch the end of it off. Still have plenty of pressure but no flow. I believe this is what is happening with the rod problem. Until it gets to full operating temp and maybe even not then, because the clearance is so tight you always have pressure but the system has a hard time pushing the thick oil through the tight rod clearance. This results in cavitation because there is no flow. When bearing shells show the typical bottom shell looks ok top shell is bad worn that is the number one indication of just a plain lack of lubrication.
It has been tested to death and there is no denying that the tws is a fantastic oil. If it were available in a 0-40/50 or a 5-40 option I would still run it. BMW and there infinite wisdon says it is ok to run the oil 15k miles no matter how hard you drive it. The only way to make this happen it to run a robust oil such as the tws. That doesnt mean it is the best option though for us street drivers. Also remember this car was designed in 2006, much has changed over the last 7 years in regards to the quality of oil available. I am currently running a 0wt but I am also changing it every 4k miles because I dont drive it all the time. I would never try to run the 0wt for even 10k miles let alone 15k miles but that s just me.

First, thank you so much for the knowledge that you and the other share with us. I really enjoy reading these technical stuff and learning from it. After reading this again, I can't help but to wonder about the following.

I am assuming the oil flow from the engine block to the crank through the main bearings/journals and then flow from within/through the crank to the rod bearings/journals. Is this assumption correct? If I am off base then please ignore the second part and excuse my ignorance.

If the above assumption is correct, then based on your example of pinching the water hose, is it possible that the main bearing clearance is too tight resulting in not enough flow further down the path for the rod bearings? If so, our only real bandit is to run thinner oil. Changing the rod bearings is not going to help? Or the real fix would be to have open heart surgery and open up the engine to increase the clearance for both the main and rod bearings.

Thanks in advance and don't shoot me for my stupid questions if they are dumb. I am trying to learn here. Cheers.

[VCMpower]

Yes, should we all open our motors up? That is the question.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by VCMpower

Yes, should we all open our motors up? That is the question.

I don't think so.........http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...6#post14355666

[aussiem3]

I am waiting for someone to comment on Penrite. C'mon guys

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

I am waiting for someone to comment on Penrite. C'mon guys

Sorry my friend , but here in Belgium i'm never heard something about Penrite oil

[bigtracing]

hey all i first want to thank all the guys putting time in to this thread and adding all the research there doing.

I am currently stranded in new jersey on the way to bimmerfest east. I was driving down the jersey turnpike when all of a sudden i felt a small stumble in the motor and then went away. was cruising about 80 in 6th gear (6mt). 1 mile later i start hearing chattering noises and it stumbles again. the noise started progressively getting louder and oil temp from what was in the middle of the 75% mark and 210 up to the 75% mark and the fan started screaming. i then decide to pull off thinking the flapping noise was a plastic bag or something cause i thought i heard it earlier that trip. when i pull off and pop the hood it was immediately clear something was majorly wrong and I shut it down. i remembered from a recent bearing thread that these were the same symptoms and that the op let car cool down and it ran fine for another 10 mintues. so we sat there and waited till the guage hit 200 and fired it back up. the second we fired it back up it sounded like the whole rolling assembly was about to fall out the car and i killed the switch and called the tow truck.

Now i may possibly be jumping the gun on this being a rod bearing but it coincides with a lot of the symptoms i have seen. the car never threw a code (had a simple o2 scanner with me cause i have been watching an 02 sensor code that fires randomly)

Background on the car
07 build
110,000miles
only mod is a acm exhaust mod and shows no sign of previous mods
burns a quart every 2k on the dot
i bought the car in december with 96000 miles
car was bmw maintained untill i bought it then started doing 5k oil changes
car went into service at under 50k for a high oil consumption complaint but no work was done in response.
i have no oil samples currently waiting for my kit to come

Now assuming I spun a bearing... what is the optimum set up for longevity of the engine? should I build up a stroker with bigger clearances?

Also what data should i record that will help the community out?

Basically what i am asking if it was your car where would you start?

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by bigtracing

hey all i first want to thank all the guys putting time in to this thread and adding all the research there doing.

I am currently stranded in new jersey on the way to bimmerfest east. I was driving down the jersey turnpike when all of a sudden i felt a small stumble in the motor and then went away. was cruising about 80 in 6th gear (6mt). 1 mile later i start hearing chattering noises and it stumbles again. the noise started progressively getting louder and oil temp from what was in the middle of the 75% mark and 210 up to the 75% mark and the fan started screaming. i then decide to pull off thinking the flapping noise was a plastic bag or something cause i thought i heard it earlier that trip. when i pull off and pop the hood it was immediately clear something was majorly wrong and I shut it down. i remembered from a recent bearing thread that these were the same symptoms and that the op let car cool down and it ran fine for another 10 mintues. so we sat there and waited till the guage hit 200 and fired it back up. the second we fired it back up it sounded like the whole rolling assembly was about to fall out the car and i killed the switch and called the tow truck.

Now i may possibly be jumping the gun on this being a rod bearing but it coincides with a lot of the symptoms i have seen. the car never threw a code (had a simple o2 scanner with me cause i have been watching an 02 sensor code that fires randomly)

Background on the car
07 build
110,000miles
only mod is a acm exhaust mod and shows no sign of previous mods
burns a quart every 2k on the dot
i bought the car in december with 96000 miles
car was bmw maintained untill i bought it then started doing 5k oil changes
car went into service at under 50k for a high oil consumption complaint but no work was done in response.
i have no oil samples currently waiting for my kit to come

Now assuming I spun a bearing... what is the optimum set up for longevity of the engine? should I build up a stroker with bigger clearances?

Also what data should i record that will help the community out?

Basically what i am asking if it was your car where would you start?

Well, Lets hope you don't have a spun bearing, but according to what you describe that may be the case.

Burning a quart of oil every 2K is not considered excessive by BMW and if my car had this issue I probably wouldn't worry about it too much either. The oil burning has no correlation to the bearings anyway so don't worry about that.

So for a path forward in my opinion, here are your options:

1) Pull the engine apart and see what the problem is, if it is indeed a bearing issue check with a machine shop and see if your crank journals are damaged beyond repair. If your crank is salvageable I would have all the journals sized for at least 0.002" oil clearance on the mains and 0.0022"-0.0025" on the rods using OEM bearings. (these numbers are my own personal opinion and the machine shop you decide to use may be able to recommend oil clearances to you). This option will be the most cost effective for you since it won't require you to completely tear down the engine or buy any parts beyond new bearings and having some machine work completed on the crank. This option also assumes that you don't find any other issues when the engine is open. If the crank is not salvageable a new crank with bearings included prices out at roughly $2-3K from a BMW dealer. Also please ensure that if you have to get a new crank and bearings that you have it measured and sized just like the one that is in the engine now. This option should be able to be done for around $5K but only your main/rod bearings will be new and the rest of the engine will still have over 100K on it.......... I personally would not go this way myself, but I am giving it as an option since I don't know your budget or intentions with regards to how long you intend to keep the car.

2) Completely tear down the engine and measure/inspect everything and replace all parts that are deemed necessary. Have the engine bored the smallest oversize that your machine shop recommends and install new pistons, rings, hydraulic lifters, bearings, inspect/replace the oil pumps since the engine has over 100,000 miles on it.....etc. Have crank inspected as mentioned above and see if it is salvageable, if it is have the journals sized for my previously mentioned clearances or to the machine shops recommended clearances....... (Journal sizing is necessary since no oversize bearings are available for the S65). This option should be able to be done for around $10K and you will end up with an essentially brand new S65 with a displacement of nearly OEM. The oversize bores are only recommended so that the engine will be completely fresh!

3)Have a stroker built to your displacement of choice with crank journals sized to give you the previously recommended oil clearances. Ensure if you have a stroker built that you request the crank journals to be sized since many companies will build their strokers to OEM clearances....... Dinan is the only company that I have talked to that does adjusted clearances by default. The stroker will have upgraded rods, fresh bores, new pistons, rings, and will be essentially a new engine but with some upgraded parts in there! To build the stroker will cost between $15-25K depending on who does it for you.

I hope one of these options works for you...... keep us posted on what you decide and post pictures of the engine when it is torn down please!

[mtbkr31]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

That is lots of oil pressure for those particular RPM's

I will have to install a gauge on my car when I do the stroker with added clearance on the bearings just to compare!

Would you mind telling us what the max oil pressure you see is at redline with warm oil? And what pressure is on a cold start(should be on the relief)?

I forgot to see what it is at redline...I'll get that next time but if memory serves me right I know it's above 60 psi.

First pic is at idle with warm oil (~25 psi) and 2nd pic is at startup when dead cold (~80 psi):

[Richbot]

Where are you getting the oil pressure signal? Do you have a sender installed or using a factory sensor somewhere?

[bigtracing]

thank you for the suggestions. first things first will be to figure out exactly what's wrong. I will try and document as much as possible!
next thing is I don't feel that 6 months into ownership of a car that was maintained and bought at that dealer. that I should be rebuilding the motor out of my pocket when there are so many known cases of this. I think we should get some kind of running tally going of cases and send up to bmw or maybe cca can get some pull to at least do something. I'm most likely screwed in this case cause of my mileage. and second owner of the car. but these guys just out of warrenty shouldnt be rebuilding motors out of pocket.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Sorry my friend , but here in Belgium i'm never heard something about Penrite oil

My post #313 is listing the oils. So I guess, one of our in-house gurus can chime in with their thoughts. These oils don't thin as much as other oils including TWS, as claimed.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by bigtracing

thank you for the suggestions. first things first will be to figure out exactly what's wrong. I will try and document as much as possible!
next thing is I don't feel that 6 months into ownership of a car that was maintained and bought at that dealer. that I should be rebuilding the motor out of my pocket when there are so many known cases of this. I think we should get some kind of running tally going of cases and send up to bmw or maybe cca can get some pull to at least do something. I'm most likely screwed in this case cause of my mileage. and second owner of the car. but these guys just out of warrenty shouldnt be rebuilding motors out of pocket.

Surely, when you buy a car from BMW approved, there should be some kind of warranty that comes with the car - 12 months or mileage. Hopefully, if that's the case they should take care of the rebuild/repair without you being out of pocket. All BMW approved used cars in Australia are sold with 12-month warranty. Hope things work out for you ... I really feel for your pain. It's not pretty.

As I said in one of the other posts, bearings are regarded as a wear component just like brakes etc., so it's hard to raise a case as a bearing failure and a manufacturing/design issue. Unless you can show a pattern with hard data. This is my opinion. Explore everything before you put the hand in the pocket. Good luck.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony

I don't like this thread....way too scary!

Doesn't the title say that

[bigtracing]

I will have to look into my options with the dealer. I got the car with a 6 month drivetrain warranty and a 30 day warrety as well. they didn't even cover the throttle actuator at 29 days. I feel I have a fairly good case against them given certain service items they forgot when the p.o. had it. such as:
at 97000miles I put in.
first set of spark plugs
I put the third air filter in it
I have pictures of a misproperly installed air filter that I removed from the car when I got it.
all of these are confirmed by there records which ars up to the date that I bought the car.
and now after all that I have a possible blown motor .
if they don't at least acknowledge something this will be the last bmw after 6 my family and I have owned.

[aussiem3]

Given my current mileage, the car will be 20 years old before I will need bearings at 100k km. That's if there are no issues prior to that. At least the thread is educating as to what precautions one must take to minimise potential bearing failures.