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05-21-2009, 12:22 PM | #287 | |
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You are now clearly trying to have it both ways. Will BMW and Porsche cover cars used for track days or not? A track day is any event on a race track, driving as hard as one wishes, but with the key exception that timing and placing is not used. It is not a race. Plain and simple. The fact of the matter is that BMW and Porsche do and will cover such events under warranty. There is evidence of that on the BMW side on this very forum and on places like 6speedonline on the Porsche side. Heck BMW themselves will take you out on the track as part of the delivery of your new M car! Many vehicles not just BMWs and Porsches will handle hard periodic track days with no significant long term negative effects. Wear is always a factor, absolutely, a car driven at 9 or 10 10ths will certainly wear faster than one driven at a daily driving pace. There is no excuse and no reason for denying a warranty claim on a sporty vehicle based on non-competitive track use. I further purpost that this statement is absolutely false, "It is not cheating if the alterations that were made can be made by any owner on any showroom car." "Showroom stock" has a very precise definition and if you don't see that I don't think we can have much of a discussion on the point. Under your absurd definition nearly any modification can be done still calling a car showroom stock; tires, wheels, brakes, suspension components, suspension adjustments, ECU software, etc., etc. Last but not least, the instructions in the M3 owners manual on track use does not discuss modifications nor adjustments to the car. It is a short, general set of statements and precautions. The mere presence of these statements in the owners manual lies in massive stark contrast to Nissans approach toward track use. |
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05-21-2009, 12:44 PM | #288 |
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Listen, who is to know if any of the other factory time posted by the likes of GM, Porsche, etc don't have things like suspension adjusted. The fact is that on the 7:29 lap the GTR was running the Dunlops that are now standard on UK cars.
The simply truth is that once again the GTR has shown it's true potential, Autocar posted a lap against the F430 Scud, 997turbo, GT3 and LP560, with the exception of the Scud which was only something like 0.3s quicker the GTR was top dog and by quite a margain against the GT3 and Turbo. |
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05-21-2009, 01:08 PM | #289 | ||
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You have the new CAR magazine where CAR specifically set out to end the dispute of who is faster around the ring. Why not post their conclusion, without any spin?
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05-21-2009, 02:20 PM | #290 | |
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05-21-2009, 02:35 PM | #291 | |
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05-21-2009, 03:51 PM | #292 | ||
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Andy Gulden
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P.S. Reading between the lines at best guess Andy did a minimum of two flying laps in the GT3 and only one in the Nissan. |
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05-21-2009, 04:00 PM | #293 |
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05-21-2009, 04:14 PM | #294 | |
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I still say that adjusting a standard, adjustable feature is not cheating. It's not changing anything on the standard car like wheels or tyres etc. It is simply making use of a feature available to everyone buying the car in standard form. It's no different to using the M button on the M3. When you take delivery of your M3 that button is set to everything on low settings (I played with mine wo it might have had power on but everything else is off (MDM, power plus etc). That is still adjusting showroom fresh settings. It's obviously easier to do with a button but it definitely changes the character of the car. I'll take you word for it on the track day warranty but calll me yeller but I won't be testing it out. I completely agree that the warranty thing in general is a complete cop out. Disgraceful but I still can't help thinking that if someone took them to court over it they would have a chance of winning. To be honest I was trying to buy one here before I got my car but wasn't prepared to bend over and take it up the ass from a dealer that register a car so he could then charge 40k over list. Screw that. I'm kinda glad I didn't now although I would consider it in the future once all this pans out and we see how reliable they really are. No denying the performance I think and I don't do track days so that won't bother me. |
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05-21-2009, 04:33 PM | #296 | |
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p.s. Regarding his GT-R lap, Andy flat out stated "99% of my lines were perfect". Doesn't sound like he left massive chunks of time out on the track.
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05-22-2009, 03:58 AM | #297 | |
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It's clear we aren't going to see eye to eye on anything relating to the GTR, what is cool and I don't really have a problem with that. After all, how long did it take to convince everyone that the earth wasn't the centre of the universe or that it wasn't even flat. The only thing I would like to add is from my experience I could always lap quicker when I was familiar with the thing I was driving and that can only come from trial and error. Put me in a Cayman or Boxster (regardless of model or age) and I would consistently be quick than in something that wasn't dramatically quicker but had never before driven which is what was asked of Andy on this occasion. I am 100% certain that Andy is very familiar with the 997 and has covered close on a 100 of laps in them, to do one hot lap in a car which behaviours and characteristics are foreign to you and get to within a 2 seconds of another true track and equally accomplished ring star like the GT3 in my mind says a lot for the GTR and a lot more than you are giving credit for. So if you think that straight out of the box Andy achieved anything like his best in the GTR then you are mistaken and that is all I have to say on the subject. |
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05-22-2009, 09:40 AM | #298 |
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I think there can be no question that you are going to get faster the more experience you have in any car. That can't be argued by any sane person. I think the only question now is how do we know how much experience the driver has had in 911's.
If he has had no experience in 911's then I think the lhd/rhd thing would have made less of a difference. However, I seem to get the impression that he has done a lot of driving in Porsches?? Is that correct? I don't know why I get this impression and the thread is too long to go back through it (must be a record). Does anyone know definitively if the driver has or has not had 911 experience??? |
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05-22-2009, 09:57 AM | #299 |
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When you think how long the GT3 in all it's forms has been in production and how often it is used on the ring then it's logical to expect someone of Andy's experience and profession to have spent a decent amount of time behind the wheel of a GT3 of some sort.
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05-23-2009, 02:20 AM | #300 |
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It has also been said the GTR is easier to drive at the limits than most sports cars.
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05-23-2009, 07:12 PM | #301 | |
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That was written in 600bc... So I guess it didn't take very long... I'm just pulling your leg, footie, I just wanted to be an ass...
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05-24-2009, 08:04 AM | #302 |
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Just to add some perspective: Sportauto finally announced their long anticipated Supertest of the GT-R for the next issue. So guys, mark June 19th in your calendar.
As soon as we have the Supertest results we'll know whether the GT-R really lives up to all the hype. Will it be able to beat the 997.5 GT3 and be faster than 7:40? I know this discussion will go on no matter what the results will be though... Best regards, south
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05-25-2009, 03:37 PM | #303 | |
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Check this article out http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=30921 |
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05-25-2009, 05:23 PM | #304 | |
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BTW, I timed a GT3 through the pit lane section that CAR added to it's time for both the GT3 and GTR and it amounts to approximately 6~7 seconds. Also the GTR was equipped with Bridgestones and not the Dunlops once more which account for about 5 seconds . |
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05-25-2009, 05:39 PM | #305 | |
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Also on the bottom of the OP is this: "The famous Sportauto magazine have tested the GTR In the next issue to, and the rumors say that Horst von sauma (nurburgring testdriver) couldnt get near Nissan "official" nurburgring time." We are wondering if it is possible to reproduce Nissan's claim. The GT3/911 times are accepted as being fact and reproduced by several independent sources in a very consistent manner. While the only person who can achieve Nissan's claim time is a Nissan driver. It's been a year since the GT-R has been out in the hands of pro drivers and surely there must be some other pro who could get closer than the 7:50ish times we've all seen repeated over and over. When you boast about something like Nissan has, you better be prepared for scrutiny and I can't recall something being so looked over with a fine tooth comb than this lap time. Yet, no evidence supports Nissan's claim other than failure over failure to get this sub 7:30 time. On top of this, everyone of these groups testing now have their warranty voided. hahaha I demand a recount for my E92 M3, no way it's 8:05...get that Nissan driver in there and it will be 7:35 easy. |
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05-26-2009, 02:28 AM | #306 | |
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Another thing that needs to be considered is that the official Porsche times are actually times reproduced by SportAuto on most occasions. The whole argument is whether or not the GTR is capable of the times it has done and in this I am 100% convinced that's genuine. |
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05-26-2009, 10:06 AM | #307 | |
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Best regards, south
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05-26-2009, 10:38 AM | #308 | |
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A question to you South, do you believe it's possible to approach a car's true potential the first time you have ever driven it or in the very first lap you do? I know that Sportauto's times are regarded as the industry standard and all these factory times are in most cases only pie in the sky figures that will never be repeated. I am yet to see a ZR1 lapping in 7:26 or a CTS-V doing an under eight minute lap which begs the question why everyone seems to be on Nissan's case about their times. |
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