Scary rod bearing thread s85

[W///]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Going from a Xw60 to an Xw40 oil is not going to significantly affect oil pressure guys! The S65 oiling system is not maxed out by any means!

Also opening up clearances to around 0.002 - 0.0025 is not going to drop oil pressure to a level that is too low for safe operation of the engine. I have confirmed that Dinan uses an OEM oil pump non-modified, I have also confirmed that they open up the clearances on the mains and rods to 0.0019 and 0.0025 respectively. Do you honestly think Dinan did this without doing any R&D? No company charging 25k for their engine with 2 years of warranty or a company like BMW would design an engine would run an oil pump that is maxed out for flow. I wish I could flow test an S65 pump to confirm its flow rate for all of you that worry about oil pressure!

I figured as much, but I'd just like some confirmation just to be double sure. Due for an oil change in about 2500 miles, and got tons of road trips planned.

Will send the last 10W60 to Blackstone, then most likely switch to M1 0W40.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by W///

Will send the last 10W60 to Blackstone, then most likely switch to M1 0W40.

Re UOA vs engine wear -- new thread on BITOG: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=3068827

[BMRLVR]

OK I have pulled all but #1 and #6. Taking a break so I'd thought I'd post 2 through 5 and 7 through 10. They all look the same. getting closer to the oil pump and there is no difference. Looking at these, I'm glad I pulled them. If the motor doesn't last, well then I was the forum guinea pig. Will run Rotella at first.

Upper shell is the first picture. The crank journals are perfect.
Attached Thumbnails

I copied an pasted the above from M5 board from a gentleman who did his bearings as preventative maintenance. The one thing that confirms the issue with the bearing clearance issue on the S65/85 is when the poster stated that the wear didn't change as it got further away from the oil pump!

In virtually all cases where I have been in an engine regardless of if it was a small gasoline engine, or a large Diesel engine, I can tell you that the bearings with the most wear are furthest from the oil pump!!! The fact that the wear didn't change as the bearings got further from the pump confirms for me that in this particular engine that there is no oil starvation due to the pump being undersized, but rather the lack of bearing clearance is proved since all the bearings are showing even wear. The principles of hydraulics will tell you that the first bearing nearest to the pump will receive the greatest volume of oil since the lubrication system of an engine is open to the sump and the bearings are not sealed in any way. In an engine lubrication system, only pump volume and oil viscosity keeps the bearings full of oil!

[CSBM5]

Yikes! Resize pictures?

[JohnAnthony]

Originally Posted by W///

I'll be looking at switching to M1 as well after my next Blackstone report. I'd really like to hear about the oil pressure, then I'll be really convinced.

should read the thread on BITOG before anyone sends off anymore oil samples to Blackstone

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Thank you very much. We don't have Rotella in Australia. The other option is to add some oil additives from Liqui Moly and improve the properties in 5w-40. Just a thought? You're a god send to this forum and topic. Cheers.

aussiem3 how do you have any troubles with oil choice?

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/

[exmowner]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Going from a Xw60 to an Xw40 oil is not going to significantly affect oil pressure guys! The S65 oiling system is not maxed out by any means!

Also opening up clearances to around 0.002 - 0.0025 is not going to drop oil pressure to a level that is too low for safe operation of the engine. I have confirmed that Dinan uses an OEM oil pump non-modified, I have also confirmed that they open up the clearances on the mains and rods to 0.0019 and 0.0025 respectively. Do you honestly think Dinan did this without doing any R&D? No company charging 25k for their engine with 2 years of warranty or a company like BMW would design an engine would run an oil pump that is maxed out for flow. I wish I could flow test an S65 pump to confirm its flow rate for all of you that worry about oil pressure!

Putting the clearance issues aside do you think the long oil service intervals contributes to the bearing wear?

I'm sticking to my 4000km oil changes, makes me sleep better at night

[exmowner]

Originally Posted by JohnAnthony

should read the thread on BITOG before anyone sends off anymore oil samples to Blackstone

Why are you against it?

take a look at my last report, very informative!

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by exmowner

Why are you against it?

take a look at my last report, very informative!

I think he's referring to B767capt's pristine UOA report showing absolutely "no chance" of an issue with engine wear when in fact his rod bearings (as shown in that thread) were in serious trouble. A UOA is simply not a good indicator of potentially harmful conditions like rod bearing wear in this case. It's more likely a false positive scenario at times.

[JohnAnthony]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

I think he's referring to B767capt's pristine UOA report showing absolutely "no chance" of an issue with engine wear when in fact his rod bearings (as shown in that thread) were in serious trouble. A UOA is simply not a good indicator of potentially harmful conditions like rod bearing wear in this case. It's more likely a false positive scenario at times.

yes this is my reason for making sure you know what you're getting when you send your oil to blackstone. the members on BITOG pointed out that Blackstone carries out Spectrographic Analysis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrographic_analysis

which are limited in the size of particle they find, thus a Blackstone UOA would be better suited to simply learn of your Oil's wear rather than your engine.

a PQ Analysis was suggested, but it may be cost prohibitive:
http://www.wearcheck.com/literature/...Q-ANALYSIS.pdf

P.S.
While a blackstone UOA "may" show changes in wear patterns that end up correlating with bearing/engine wear, it is Not Guaranteed that it will help discover this wear in time or discover it at all [as the case w/ the M5Board member].

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by exmowner

Putting the clearance issues aside do you think the long oil service intervals contributes to the bearing wear?

I'm sticking to my 4000km oil changes, makes me sleep better at night

Generally speaking, more frequent oil changes are better, but, with a 10L sump 4000KM would be overkill and IMO would not cause a significant reduction in bearing wear....... As stated in the past by me and others the issue with the S65 is mainly clearance related and not oil related. (My recommendations for a 5W40 or 0W40 oil is to limit wear before the oil is up to operating temp. When and "if", the TWS gets to temp, it really is a great engine oil!)

8000KM (5000 miles) is my preferred interval and oil analysis shows that the TBN and viscosity of the TWS is still high enough at 8000KM to go significantly longer than that. Oil analysis also shows that filtration is fine at well beyond 8000KM as well!

[B767capt]

Thanks John for bring this up. Yes those are my bearings unfortunately. I sure am glad I changed them though. I decided against coated bearings after I started reading this thread. I think I will change them again at 100k. So far 2 days of easy driving and all is well and no codes. I put Rotella T-6 in for the break in and will run it 1200 miles. I'm keeping up here to learn about the best oil choice. I'm learning a lot from you guys. I am sure glad I decided to go look and swap them out. I am always easy on the gas until the oil is up to temp but I bought the car with 40K on it and I'm the second owner. It has original rotors and more than 50% of the original brake pads left. It was not abused as far as I can tell. I don't track the car.
Bill

[W///]

Originally Posted by B767capt

Thanks John for bring this up. Yes those are my bearings unfortunately. I sure am glad I changed them though. I decided against coated bearings after I started reading this thread. I think I will change them again at 100k. So far 2 days of easy driving and all is well and no codes. I put Rotella T-6 in for the break in and will run it 1200 miles. I'm keeping up here to learn about the best oil choice. I'm learning a lot from you guys. I am sure glad I decided to go look and swap them out. I am always easy on the gas until the oil is up to temp but I bought the car with 40K on it and I'm the second owner. It has original rotors and more than 50% of the original brake pads left. It was not abused as far as I can tell. I don't track the car.
Bill

Hey Bill, can you tell me who did the job and around how much it cost? PM me if necessary.

I'm in Greenville SC and always looking for a shop I can trust in this area.

[B767capt]

Hey I'm from Spartanburg. I did it all by myself. Bearings, rod bolts, pan gasket and I bought the internal vanos high pressure hose as they are known to leak. Mine was good but changed it anyway since I was looking at it. Don't want to pull the pan again for that. Also put 2 new serpentine belts on. Total about 800.00. Vincent at Bimmerzone got my parts for me. He's great. I also have the ISTA software to bleed vanos, which I did afterwards. I also used the ISTA to shut off the injectors and did a compression check on all cylinders. I pulled all the plugs as I didn't want any compression when I first spun the motor. Wanted to get the oil flowing without compression load on the rods. Plus I thought it would be easier to push the rods up when changing the bearings with an open hole on top. Put new plugs in and fired it up. The steering has to be disconnected to lower the subassembly and the SMG did not like that. It threw a code on start up for that but used ISTA to tell it where zero is again. Not hard but time consuming.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by B767capt

Hey I'm from Spartanburg. I did it all by myself. Bearings, rod bolts, pan gasket and I bought the internal vanos high pressure hose as they are known to leak. Mine was good but changed it anyway since I was looking at it. Don't want to pull the pan again for that. Also put 2 new serpentine belts on. Total about 800.00. Vincent at Bimmerzone got my parts for me. He's great. I also have the ISTA software to bleed vanos, which I did afterwards. I also used the ISTA to shut off the injectors and did a compression check on all cylinders. I pulled all the plugs as I didn't want any compression when I first spun the motor. Wanted to get the oil flowing without compression load on the rods. Plus I though it would be easier to push the rods up when changing the bearings with an open hole on top. Put new plugs in and fired it up. The steering has to be disconnected to lower the subassembly and the SMG did not like that. It threw a code on start up for that but used ISTA to tell it where zero is again. Not hard but time consuming.

You're one hell of a brave man.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by JohnAnthony

... aussiem3 how do you have any troubles with oil choice? http://www.penriteoil.com.au/

I know the guy who bought my E46 M3 swore by it. It's widely used by workshops in Australia and the preferred choice of oil. But I am scared to use anything but TWS until we can find a valid alternate.

I change my oil 12-monthly and don't push the car until it's up to the optimum operating temp. As pointed out in the latter posts, once TWS reaches the optimum then there is nothing to beat that oil. The problem with the flow is when it's cold. I know when my car is cold it's a pig and a pain to drive ... engine and gearbox all so stiff and non-compliant. When it's warm the two experiences are like chalk and cheese. Just goes to highlight the cold characteristics of the lubricants used by BMW.

Also we need to keep in mind the clearances within the engine everywhere ... just not the bearings. TWS will maintain that required clearance expected by BMW /// engineers. So changing the oil as not that easy.

I think "patience" is the answer to this whole rod bearing issue. Wait for the oil to heat up and then push the car. Simple. This is not rocket science at least for now, and until we find a solution. No one has a S65 test bed to try out any other oil on long term to understand the wear pattern. So it's a very tough one.


I know everyone is doing their level best, and Kawasaki in particular to put all at ease. But it's an individual judgement call.

[BMRLVR]

To AussieM3.

The most important clearances to look at in an engine with regards to oil pressure and viscosity are the main bearings. No other single component in has as much effect on oil pressure as the main and rod bearings...... Cam bearings do also have an effect but not nearly as much since the oil volume to the top end of the engine is no where near that to the main and rod bearings!

[e92zero]

unfortunately, we have no easy way of looking at the main bearings without tearing the engine apart. Is that correct? I wonder what the main bearings look like in all of these engine that has the rod bearing failing.

[M3PO]

Originally Posted by W///

On my sheet, it says the average is supposed to be 9 if I'm not mistaken. So even if yours keeps going up, as long as it hovers around there, I wouldn't worry too much. Now if all of a sudden it jumps to let's say 14 (arbitrary number), then yes it might be time to take action.

What would you do if your number averaged 36 over the last 16K miles?!?!

Originally Posted by VCMpower

I still believe regardless of all the talks, that warming your motor up, not loading it when cold, and doing more frequent oil changes and you are fine. Have fun! On a final note it has not been discussed about the damaging effect of revving your motor up in Neutral to impress friends or whatever is a no no. Oil pressure will not climb as fast as this motor can spin up to 8400rpm with no load against it. Bad news.

I do all of that and clearly mine is not fine.

Originally Posted by BIU

So does this mean we DD guys wont have to worry?

I dont know how this whole thing ties into the infamous cold start-up "clack".. but I do have this issue on and off..

Not so fast buddy. Mine is a DD. See above.

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Ok...i see,thanks man !
BTW...this is the...bang (clack) ...start up sound that many of us hear with a cold start v v v
This is a video from another member of this forum ,i have this clack sound too...but not so loud,maybe 50 % of it !

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Hi
Mine was as loud as that ...if the car has been left parked for too long .... may be a week and when you start it, you hear it. Dealer checked it out and raised a PUMA and BMW said it is normal for age and mileage of the car. It's the oil pressure dropping inside the vanos and check valve related. Nothing to worry.

But one thing ... since I got Mike's tune, I haven't experienced it. I think Mike's tune does make some changes to the vanos parameters and may be it has taken care of it. It's definitely check valve related inside the vanos.

It's perfectly normal according to BMW.

This is not true at all. The issue that causes this noise is 100% inside of the VANOS unit(s). It IS a legitimate issue and BMW does recognize that. Will it have detrimental consequences in the future or simply be an annoyance? I don't know.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by M3PO

... This is not true at all. The issue that causes this noise is 100% inside of the VANOS unit(s). It IS a legitimate issue and BMW does recognize that. Will it have detrimental consequences in the future or simply be an annoyance? I don't know.

I don't know whether this is an issue. But BMW said it's definitely fine given the age of the car.

A few minutes ago, I started the car after been parked for exactly a week, and I didn't get the noise. It's strange, because, since I dot the BPM tune, this noise has gone away. I don't know

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

To AussieM3.

The most important clearances to look at in an engine with regards to oil pressure and viscosity are the main bearings. No other single component in has as much effect on oil pressure as the main and rod bearings...... Cam bearings do also have an effect but not nearly as much since the oil volume to the top end of the engine is no where near that to the main and rod bearings!

Cheers

[Longwong]

I agree with another fellow who questioned several random people who are not engineers let alone engineers who designed, built and specced the s65 engine for the M division. The tws for the e46 may have been a "fix" but the s65 was designed with plenty of time to look at bearing clearences and oil choices. I really find it hard to believe a few random guys know better than the m division.

After reading a lot, I really feel it is often the guys who do not get their oil temps high enough consistently and don't drive the car consistently hard enough to get the oil up to a good temp. I have always followed strictly keeping revs low until oil temps up to near middle. Then I daily push the car hard enough to keep the oil needle at the middle or higher in summer. Car has almost 60k, runs stronger than the day I bought it new and change oil every 7500 since day 1. Change sparks every 10k-15k, air filter every 7500 and drive it like I stole it once engine is warm.

I believe the M division knows what clearences to pick and which oil to use. It just seems silly to think they made the wrong decision. Rather people buy the wrong car and don't use the m3 and the s65 engine for how it was built and designed which is to get the operating temps nice and high, and use the high revs which inherently get the oil hot.

You can't design an oil and engine for all walks of life. The focus of the car was to make power at high rpms and to push the car. So that is how they designed it and spec'ed the oil. If you never push the car than the m3 was not designed and likely it is those people who suffer from the bearing issues IMO

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by Longwong

I agree with another fellow who questioned several random people who are not engineers let alone engineers who designed, built and specced the s65 engine for the M division. The tws for the e46 may have been a "fix" but the s65 was designed with plenty of time to look at bearing clearences and oil choices. I really find it hard to believe a few random guys know better than the m division.

After reading a lot, I really feel it is often the guys who do not get their oil temps high enough consistently and don't drive the car consistently hard enough to get the oil up to a good temp. I have always followed strictly keeping revs low until oil temps up to near middle. Then I daily push the car hard enough to keep the oil needle at the middle or higher in summer. Car has almost 60k, runs stronger than the day I bought it new and change oil every 7500 since day 1. Change sparks every 10k-15k, air filter every 7500 and drive it like I stole it once engine is warm.

I believe the M division knows what clearences to pick and which oil to use. It just seems silly to think they made the wrong decision. Rather people buy the wrong car and don't use the m3 and the s65 engine for how it was built and designed which is to get the operating temps nice and high, and use the high revs which inherently get the oil hot.

You can't design an oil and engine for all walks of life. The focus of the car was to make power at high rpms and to push the car. So that is how they designed it and spec'ed the oil. If you never push the car than the m3 was not designed and likely it is those people who suffer from the bearing issues IMO

I don't think anyone here is questioning BMW knowledge. People are collecting sharing information to find a solution to a scary issues. Simple as that. For some certain types of have worked and some are experimenting. I think we need respect each other and it's very important.

I agree with you, and I do the same. So it is the case of educating and sharing knowledge. We all did certain things religiously when we were running the car in, and then we forget what's required following the initial start up from cold. So we have to be patient as we go through the process of re-educating.