Custom Clevite Rod Bearings

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

As a point of information, this was the reply I received from a technical enquiry I made to Mahle Clevite enclosing a number of images of worn S65 rod bearings (taken from the epic bearing thread) showing the typical wear pattern.
My question:
"Any idea on the wear presented would be great. Could using low octane fuel be a factor in what looks like excessive wear...the S65 engine does come with a anti knock ignition system."
Answer:
"Well, generally speaking, when you see heavy, accelerated wear on the upper
rod bearings, the cause is detonation. You can still see the machining
marks on the lower shells and I see no signs of abrasive wear caused by
contaminated oil" [followed by a discussion on detonation].

Originally Posted by regular guy

It was also dismissed by the same Mahle-Clevite representatives once they saw the same and actual bearings in person.

I'm also not sure anybody can draw conclusions about factory tuning by analyzing data a logs of aftermarket tunes. Seems like an invalid comparison to me. But let's assume BMW really did screw up the tuning, why hasn't those same tuners fixed it by now or exposed the flaw in BMW's tuning?

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by regular guy

It was also dismissed by the same Mahle-Clevite representatives once they saw the same and actual bearings in person.

Really?
This is you discussing your email exchange with Clevite (on another forum):
"So 10 emails later, we hashed it all out, and it all boiled down to detonation really could be a cause, but the pathology to get there would suggest the ECU wasn't doing its job. But yes, he [Clevite] acknowledged that long term, low level detonation could cause that exact type of bearing wear, but he suggested it could only happen if the ECU wasn't doing its job.

I know I can get my car to detonate at will...fill up with low octane fuel, drive a couple of hundred yards, load up the engine and listen to it ping.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by s85e90

We have seen s65 piston tops that show evidence of knocking. I have first hand HEARD AUDIBLE knocking on a few diff cars that was attributed to bad gas (93 octane). You mention that cylinders are showing diff but I'm pretty sure the s65 is able to pull individual cylinder timing (correct me if I am wrong).

I agree 100% with LSX and don't know why people are so dismissive that it can't be knock when there's pages and pages of threads and this is all just specualtion anyways.

Combine a tight clearance already and add some knocking that is forcing the piston back down and pushing the oil film out of the already small area and you have the top bearing wear we are all seeing. I have said the same before and it was dismissed. I for one don't know how much I trust this advanced IONIC knock detection system.

And yes, if you're datalogging the car and you're seeing it pull timing that means it is registering knock sums and not just pulling timing because. Why do you think the car is pulling timing??


Think about this; If I am hearing audible pinging, that's pretty bad and obviously the car is not pulling timing as it should be.

By your statement above you are agreeing oil clearance is an issue, no?

If there is knock/detonation occurring on cylinders with marginal oil clearance and the result is excessive wear, but, there is no wear/minimal wear on cylinders with adequate oil clearance I feel the ignition knock is adequately controlled but clearance is not. Does this make sense to you?

Lets test these bearings, get some information, and go from there. No matter what, the bearings can't be worse than OEM!

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Really?
This is you discussing your email exchange with Clevite (on another forum):
"So 10 emails later, we hashed it all out, and it all boiled down to detonation really could be a cause, but the pathology to get there would suggest the ECU wasn't doing its job. But yes, he [Clevite] acknowledged that long term, low level detonation could cause that exact type of bearing wear, but he suggested it could only happen if the ECU wasn't doing its job.

Yes, really. The full contents of my discussion with Clevite is posted on this site, unedited. You are trying so hard to find a contradiction in what they said could happen in theory that you're ignoring what they said they saw in person with the physical bearings in hand. There is no contradiction because one comment is based on theory and the other comment is based on physical samples. The theory still stands as just that...theory with no proof.

If tuning is the problem, then tuning is the solution. Seems like an easy fix. Why hasn't it been fixed either by BMW or by any of the tuners? Seems like it's a huge profit market just waiting to happen. Why not fund the tuning solution yourself if you're so sure about it? Seems like you could make millions off of a $1000 - $2000 investment. So what's taking you and the others so long to provide the solution for such an easy fix?

[regular guy]

If this is "textbook" detonation, then which textbook? We've already posted Clevite's textbook of bearing samples and causes of failure. The photos most clostly resembled the oil starvation and too little clearance examples in the Clevite textbook. Here's two more "textbooks" that show both detonation and oil starvation examples. Neither of these "textbook" examples of detonation match these bearing photos to me. But they do seem to match the oil starvation and too little clearance examples. Go figure.

http://www.agkits.com/bearing-failure-analysis.aspx

http://kingbearings.com/files/Engine...Avoid_Them.pdf

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by regular guy

You are trying so hard to find a contradiction in what they said could happen in theory that you're ignoring what they said they saw in person with the physical bearings in hand.

Clevite viewed the high rate of upper bearing wear as being likely to be caused by detonation until someone told them that " the MSS60 had advanced knock detection and it would seem very infeasible to be detonation related"

Originally Posted by regular guy

If tuning is the problem, then tuning is the solution. Seems like an easy fix. Why hasn't it been fixed either by BMW or by any of the tuners? Seems like it's a huge profit market just waiting to happen. Why not fund the tuning solution yourself if you're so sure about it? Seems like you could make millions off of a $1000 - $2000 investment.

Not everyone sees the bearing issue as a money making opportunity, some people would just like to be confident that the correct cause or causes have been discerned.

[FogCityM3]

Thx. Looking into this a bit more (I'm learning as much as anyone), just because timing is pulled doesn't mean that knock has already occurred, it may be preventing knock from every occurring . The BT tool uses the term angle intervention knock control, which shows that timing is pulled, but an ionic system is designed to prevent knock from ever occurring based on spectral energy measurements and adjusting timing accordingly. This paper from TI sounds very similar to how the MSS60 deals with knock.

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/spra039/spra039.pdf

I'm looking into other BT parameters (and there are hundreds of them) that may be better indicators of knock or pre-detonation actually occurring..I think some of these deal with specific measures of ionic conductance and spectrum frequency of actual knock.

Agree with some of the above posters, apologize if I've instigated a thread derailment, as I was responding to someone who brought up my datalogging. I don't want to detract from the awesome work here (and a potential viable solution that we can all benefit from), so maybe start a thread of Ionic Knock detection, does it work? may be a better place to share info and debate.

Originally Posted by s85e90

We have seen s65 piston tops that show evidence of knocking. I have first hand HEARD AUDIBLE knocking on a few diff cars that was attributed to bad gas (93 octane). You mention that cylinders are showing diff but I'm pretty sure the s65 is able to pull individual cylinder timing (correct me if I am wrong).

I agree 100% with LSX and don't know why people are so dismissive that it can't be knock when there's pages and pages of threads and this is all just specualtion anyways.

Combine a tight clearance already and add some knocking that is forcing the piston back down and pushing the oil film out of the already small area and you have the top bearing wear we are all seeing. I have said the same before and it was dismissed. I for one don't know how much I trust this advanced IONIC knock detection system.

And yes, if you're datalogging the car and you're seeing it pull timing that means it is registering knock sums and not just pulling timing because. Why do you think the car is pulling timing??


Think about this; If I am hearing audible pinging, that's pretty bad and obviously the car is not pulling timing as it should be.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Clevite viewed the high rate of upper bearing wear as being likely to be caused by detonation until someone told them that " the MSS60 had advanced knock detection and it would seem very infeasible to be detonation related"

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Thx. Looking into this a bit more (I'm learning as much as anyone), just because timing is pulled doesn't mean that knock has already occurred, it may be preventing knock from every occurring . The BT tool uses the term angle intervention knock control, which shows that timing is pulled, but an ionic system is designed to prevent knock from ever occurring based on spectral energy measurements and adjusting timing accordingly. This paper from TI sounds very similar to how the MSS60 deals with knock.

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/spra039/spra039.pdf

I'm looking into other BT parameters (and there are hundreds of them) that may be better indicators of knock or pre-detonation actually occurring..I think some of these deal with specific measures of ionic conductance and spectrum frequency of actual knock.

Agree with some of the above posters, apologize if I've instigated a thread derailment, as I was responding to someone who brought up my datalogging. I don't want to detract from the awesome work here (and a potential viable solution that we can all benefit from), so maybe start a thread of Ionic Knock detection, does it work? may be a better place to share info and debate.

If I'm not mistaken, there's quite a good explanation of the ionic knock detection in some of the BMW training manuals. I think it even has scope traces, etc.

Oh, and yes, having an ECU pull timing is normal -- been going on since the mid-1980's without causing bearing problems.

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by regular guy

If I'm not mistaken, there's quite a good explanation of the ionic knock detection in some of the BMW training manuals. I think it even has scope traces, etc.

Oh, and yes, having an ECU pull timing is normal -- been going on since the mid-1980's without causing bearing problems.

Right. If you re-read what was wrote it's that pulling timing is indicative of knock being detected. I don't know any way to read knock sums but again I have heard audible knock on several cars. IMO on a system as advanced as this knock shouldn't be audible at all.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by s85e90

Right. If you re-read what was wrote it's that pulling timing is indicative of knock being detected. I don't know any way to read knock sums but again I have heard audible knock on several cars. IMO on a system as advanced as this knock shouldn't be audible at all.

I don't know why you're directing this comment to me. I don't have a dog in your fight because I don't know what you heard or think you heard. I wasn't there. I'm not one to tell you what you think you heard or not, nor what it actually was or not.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Clevite viewed the high rate of upper bearing wear as being likely to be caused by detonation until someone told them that " the MSS60 had advanced knock detection and it would seem very infeasible to be detonation related"

Originally Posted by regular guy

Weird that you think its funny as I am quoting you.

Anyway, lets recall what Clevite said in reply to you when you asked them:
Q: "Are there any signs of bearing clearance deficiencies?"
Clevite: "I just don't see it."

So to recap:
Clevite don't believe that the sets of bearings you sent them for physical examination showed any indication of insufficient clearance.
Clevite only exclude long term low level detonation as a cause of accelerated upper bearing wear because they believe that the S65 anti knock system is infallible.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Thx. Looking into this a bit more (I'm learning as much as anyone), just because timing is pulled doesn't mean that knock has already occurred, it may be preventing knock from every occurring

After only a brief look at this technology IIUC....only when the signal from the ionic current sensor exceeds the lower "knock" setting threshold does the ECU enact its strategy to bring the combustion event back under control. Whether knock has to occur before the ECU will pull timing depends on how low/high the threshold is set. As the ionic current sensing takes place after the ignition point, it seems likely that one cycle of knock can occur before the ECU is alerted to pull ignition.
Apparently within a tune it is possible to raise the "knock" threshold setting to gain BHPs, even to the point of allowing a number of "knock" events to take place before pulling ignition.

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

I don't want to detract from the awesome work here (and a potential viable solution that we can all benefit from), so maybe start a thread of Ionic Knock detection, does it work? may be a better place to share info and debate.

I think another thread for this would be a good idea.
Maybe start off by copying these posts to a new thread and see where it goes?

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Weird that you think its funny as I am quoting you.

Anyway, lets recall what Clevite said in reply to you when you asked them:
Q: "Are there any signs of bearing clearance deficiencies?"
Clevite: "I just don't see it."

So to recap:
Clevite don't believe that the sets of bearings you sent them for physical examination showed any indication of insufficient clearance.
Clevite only exclude long term low level detonation as a cause of accelerated upper bearing wear because they believe that the S65 anti knock system is infallible.

And where did you get this information from professor?

[SenorFunkyPants]

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...9#post15365059
Third question down student.

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...9#post15365059
Third question down student.

Sorry but they did not answer yes or no just explained what detonation is and said they can tell there's high cylinder pressure from the supercharger that we all know is 100% wrong because we see this on almost every stock motor that's had bearings changed

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by leigh

Sorry but they did not answer yes or no just explained what detonation is and said they can tell there's high cylinder pressure from the supercharger that we all know is 100% wrong because we see this on almost every stock motor that's had bearings changed

If you want a link to the part about detonation (not bearing clearance) then I'm not sure if I can post the link to that particular forum. A google search of one of my quotes in bold type might get you there (leave out the word [Clevite]).

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

If you want a link to the part about detonation (not bearing clearance) then I'm not sure if I can post the link to that particular forum. A google search of one of my quotes in bold type might get you there (leave out the word [Clevite]).

Thanks for making me waste my time

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by leigh

Thanks for making me waste my time

You couldn't find PG/RGs/Kodgerator post that I quoted from?
Its not that difficult.

[kawasaki00]

If arguments want to continue over ignition timing take it to another thread. This is the second time I have asked.

[aus]

Seriously.

Everytime I see a new comment on this thread, I'm hoping to find out when the new bearings will be available, but lately it's been just the same old nonsense that's found in all the other threads even remotely bearing related.
.

[///mawana]

Originally Posted by aus

Seriously.

Everytime I see a new comment on this thread, I'm hoping to find out when the new bearings will be available, but lately it's been just the same old nonsense that's found in all the other threads even remotely bearing related.
.

^^ this!