RS5 at Geneva

[adc]

Originally Posted by footie

Why the interest in my background, I may or may not have 12 years in motorsport, I may or may not work in the motoring industry, but would it change any of your opinion on my posts or make you answer those posts differently?

All I can say is, it may or may not change our opinon on your posts.




If you have something to say about yourself, then say it, don't hide behind the bush. Motorsport experience and a job in the auto industry should things to be proud of on these forums, not things to hide.

BTW I am still looking an answer.

Specifically, to what question? It's hard to keep track what with all the side comments...

[footie]

Originally Posted by adc

All I can say is, it may or may not change our opinon on your posts.

I would never expect or want anything less.

Originally Posted by adc

If you have something to say about yourself, then say it, don't hide behind the bush. Motorsport experience and a job in the auto industry should things to be proud of on these forums, not things to hide.

I much prefer to hide behind that bush and for a good reason since such info might well change those opinions.

Originally Posted by adc

Specifically, to what question? It's hard to keep track what with all the side comments...

The question as to why RWD hasn't regained it's crown in world rallying. But you could add to that question the one why AWD has been banned for almost all form of track motorsport.

[anucci]

Originally Posted by footie

Why the interest in my background, I may or may not have 12 years in motorsport, I may or may not work in the motoring industry, but would it change any of your opinion on my posts or make you answer those posts differently?

BTW I am still looking an answer.

Anyone?????

Why the interest?
Because 50% or more of what you post, you post as fact, not matter of opinion. And most of that sounds like you are regurgitating what you read in marketing material and magazines.
And you make statements like "Oversteer is used to counter understeer". Have you actually been on a track and really felt understeer and had to correct for it? Have you actually felt oversteer and had to correct for it? Have you ever used throttle or brake modulation to steer a car?
From your statements in this and other threads it sure sounds like the answer is "no".
So if you told me that you had a good amount of track experience and actually know what makes a car handle good it would give more credibility to your posts, especially those that you state as fact. And for all I know you may be a racing driver. That's why I am interested.

Please know that I have no allegiance to either BMW or AUDI or any other auto manufacturer. I hope the RS5 makes it to the US because living in the Northeast I would love this for a winter car. And I certainly understand your enthusiasm for this car.

[adc]

Originally Posted by footie

The question as to why RWD hasn't regained it's crown in world rallying.

It's really simple - AWD is great whenever:
- there is much more power than grip
- speeds are low so aero effects don't do much

Both these conditions are met in abundance in rallying. Not so much in road (asphalt) racing.


In road racing, lower weight + less complexity + RWD is a great substitute to AWD. In rallying, there is no substitute to AWD.

[footie]

Originally Posted by adc

In road racing, lower weight + less complexity + RWD is a great substitute to AWD. In rallying, there is no substitute to AWD.

When designing a race car be it AWD or RWD you work within to the guidelines, be that weight or what ever, so if the rules say 1000kg then that applies for either RWD or AWD, the RWD car would be the lighter setup and thus could use ballast to improve weight distribution. Complexity is the many reason for it's banning in almost every form of motorsport, i.e. the cost of development and testing would have given an unfair advantage to the larger teams, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with RWD being the best setup because it has been proven countless times in the past that AWD held the upper hand.

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by footie

When designing a race car be it AWD or RWD you work within to the guidelines, be that weight or what ever, so if the rules say 1000kg then that applies for either RWD or AWD, the RWD car would be the lighter setup and thus could use ballast to improve weight distribution. Complexity is the many reason for it's banning in almost every form of motorsport, i.e. the cost of development and testing would have given an unfair advantage to the larger teams, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with RWD being the best setup because it has been proven countless times in the past that AWD held the upper hand.

For lower level racing series, I would probably agree. And by "lower level", I simply mean cars that somewhat resemble road driven cars. In the higher echelons of road racing, where car designers have virtually unlimited budgets, AWD is a non-factor. These cars generate enough downforce where the marginal benefits of AWD are not enough to justify the extra weight, complexity, and driveline loss.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

For lower level racing series, I would probably agree. And by "lower level", I simply mean cars that somewhat resemble road driven cars. In the higher echelons of road racing, where car designers have virtually unlimited budgets, AWD is a non-factor. These cars generate enough downforce where the marginal benefits of AWD are not enough to justify the extra weight, complexity, and driveline loss.

In today's level of F1 and GT racing I would have to agree with your opinion. But as you said when the car resemble road cars (the ones we all drive) then AWD has a significant benefit, especially when aerodynamics play less of a role and when mechanical grip as much more of a bearing.

[Bluechipper]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

For lower level racing series, I would probably agree. And by "lower level", I simply mean cars that somewhat resemble road driven cars. In the higher echelons of road racing, where car designers have virtually unlimited budgets, AWD is a non-factor. These cars generate enough downforce where the marginal benefits of AWD are not enough to justify the extra weight, complexity, and driveline loss.

I would consider Speed World Challenge class a lower level series.

In Touring Car, FWD and AWD cars through the years have handed it to the the RWD bimmers.

In Grand Touring, Audi S4/RS6 won back-to-back-to-back in 2001, 2002, 2003. Every other car in the series was RWD.

Also all the non-RWD cas that win British Touring Car races.


This argument hilarious.

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by Bluechipper

This argument hilarious.

It sounds like we're in agreement. Did something get lost in translation?

Slightly OT, but is it true Audi is ditching AWD for the upcoming R8 sport? It would be nice to see that car go head-to-head with the M3 GTS.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

It sounds like we're in agreement. Did something get lost in translation?

Slightly OT, but is it true Audi is ditching AWD for the upcoming R8 sport? It would be nice to see that car go head-to-head with the M3 GTS.

You mean the R8GT, if so then no it will still get AWD and according to the info I have will be one of the quickest cars on the N-ring. But where it will really shine is on the normal race tracks.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by footie

You mean the R8GT, if so then no it will still get AWD and according to the info I have will be one of the quickest cars on the N-ring. But where it will really shine is on the normal race tracks.

Quicker than Ferrari 458 Italia and McLAren MP4-12C? How much? 7:10 min?

[footie]

Originally Posted by Levi

Quicker than Ferrari 458 Italia and McLAren MP4-12C? How much? 7:10 min?

Have their times been tested or released?

No of course not, so that is why I said 'one' of the quickest.

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by anucci

Why the interest?
Because 50% or more of what you post, you post as fact, not matter of opinion. And most of that sounds like you are regurgitating what you read in marketing material and magazines.
And you make statements like "Oversteer is used to counter understeer". Have you actually been on a track and really felt understeer and had to correct for it? Have you actually felt oversteer and had to correct for it? Have you ever used throttle or brake modulation to steer a car?
From your statements in this and other threads it sure sounds like the answer is "no".
So if you told me that you had a good amount of track experience and actually know what makes a car handle good it would give more credibility to your posts, especially those that you state as fact. And for all I know you may be a racing driver. That's why I am interested.

Please know that I have no allegiance to either BMW or AUDI or any other auto manufacturer. I hope the RS5 makes it to the US because living in the Northeast I would love this for a winter car. And I certainly understand your enthusiasm for this car.

well said anucci.......but i would say it's alot more than 50% of his posts!

[adc]

Originally Posted by Bluechipper

In Touring Car, FWD and AWD cars through the years have handed it to the the RWD bimmers.

You really don't read much past the headlines, do you? BMW's are saddled with weight, intake restrictors and whatnot. Otherwise, a 330/325/328 would absolutely whip all those FWD/AWD cars in the series, and no one would watch it anymore. What do you think, a Civic will lap faster than a 328???

They do those things in the interest of keeping it close and keeping lots of manufacturers involved. It is not a fair race, by any means.

In Grand Touring, Audi S4/RS6 won back-to-back-to-back in 2001, 2002, 2003. Every other car in the series was RWD.

RS6 had gobs of power and didn't resemble the production car in the slightest. Kind of like the current M3 ALMS cars...

It was all due to the strong Audi backing, and for example the E46 M3 was just coming online in racing around 2002, took awhile to get developed. If the Audis are such good racing platforms, why is nobody using them currently? Logically, an RS4 should make a devastating track car, no? And should do it year after year, race after race not just a couple of times. If the advantage is so obvious and automatic, nobody would race a single RWD car anymore, there would be no point.

Also all the non-RWD cas that win British Touring Car races.

Rules and regulations. Again, to keep the manufacturers interested.



Look at all the series which have unlimited classes - heck even in the Pikes Peake the unlimited cars are now RWD - if AWD would provide race wins, they'd use it. Come to think of it, why isn't some AWD rally car taking the cake there?

But look beyond to other races which feature unlimited classes - like the Nurburgring 24hr - when was the last time an AWD car won there? Why not a Gallardo over the 911?

Why doesn't anybody race the 911 Turbo, with its massive power/torque and AWD? Why do they race GT3 variations?

[footie]

shiggy, you may very well enjoy you little digs every now and then at me but I can assure you that you aren't showing yourself in the best light, especially as I am refraining myself from doing like wise. All it shows is that you has nothing constructive to say about any of these discussions and prefer to reply 'well said' or something similar about someone else's reply.

Grow a pair and get involved or sit back and let the men talk.

[footie]

I think BTCC in the best example of where in theory of where the rwd chassis should have an advantage over fwd (no awd allowed) but doesn't. Can recall the last time is did. So when all things a even fwd is better on the track, must be very interesting to you guys is it not.

[smmmurf]

Originally Posted by footie

shiggy, you may very well enjoy you little digs every now and then at me but I can assure you that you aren't showing yourself in the best light, especially as I am refraining myself from doing like wise. All it shows is that you has nothing constructive to say about any of these discussions and prefer to reply 'well said' or something similar about someone else's reply.

Grow a pair and get involved or sit back and let the men talk.

Actually, I have to concur with shiggy and anucci, you do often present your posts as if they are fact as if to give yourself more credibility than you would otherwise have...

[BMW269]

footie: I like the VW Sirocco, it is very beautiful. But a apart from design, will a Sirocco R (FWD) beat a BMW 130i (RWD) around the track? No way. On straight line? By very little if not. Then 130i does not eat much more petrol than Sirocco R. I could agree with this: FWD<RWD<AWD, but never with what you say: RWD<FWD<AWD.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Levi

footie: I like the VW Sirocco, it is very beautiful. But a apart from design, will a Sirocco R (FWD) beat a BMW 130i (RWD) around the track? No way. On straight line? By very little if not. Then 130i does not eat much more petrol than Sirocco R. I could agree with this: FWD<RWD<AWD, but never with what you say: RWD<FWD<AWD.

The Scirocco R is a great road going FWD car which is more appealing to drive than the Focus RS or Megane but doesn't continue this superiority to the track, I personally put this down to it's eLSD which can't perform as well as a proper mechanical diff. But if you were to switch the comparison from the Scirocco to the Megane then you will find that it will out perform the 130i.

But what does that really prove anyway.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by footie

The Scirocco R is a great road going FWD car which is more appealing to drive than the Focus RS or Megane but doesn't continue this superiority to the track.

But what does that really prove anyway.

Surely we need to close this thread now, by your own admission What does this prove anyway, most on here will never push their cars to the limit in general road use (which applies too 99.5% on here) so front/rear wheel drive VS All wheel drive amounts to Driving style preference and brand loyalty to some extent. My own "Audi" experience was one of "the cars interiors were great,but the drive never was, and even the very good RS4 B7 I owned was NOT in the same class IMO as my M3 M-DCT.

[footie]

Originally Posted by johnbmw6

Surely we need to close this thread now, by your own admission What does this prove anyway, most on here will never push their cars to the limit in general road use (which applies too 99.5% on here) so front/rear wheel drive VS All wheel drive amounts to Driving style preference and brand loyalty to some extent. My own "Audi" experience was one of "the cars interiors were great,but the drive never was, and even the very good RS4 B7 I owned was NOT in the same class IMO as my M3 M-DCT.

Personal preference is something that can't be measured, but all the other stuff can. Like lap times, acceleration, ptw, lateral Gs, etc, and in this you will find that the RS5 to be superior.

I love both brands and have owned an M3 and know how the RS5 will perform so I am more open minded to the possibility that it might provided the driving experience to almost match the M3 but be better in many other ways.

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by adc

...

RS6 had gobs of power and didn't resemble the production car in the slightest. Kind of like the current M3 ALMS cars...

It was all due to the strong Audi backing, and for example the E46 M3 was just coming online in racing around 2002, took awhile to get developed. If the Audis are such good racing platforms, why is nobody using them currently? Logically, an RS4 should make a devastating track car, no? And should do it year after year, race after race not just a couple of times. If the advantage is so obvious and automatic, nobody would race a single RWD car anymore, there would be no point.



Rules and regulations. Again, to keep the manufacturers interested.



Look at all the series which have unlimited classes - heck even in the Pikes Peake the unlimited cars are now RWD - if AWD would provide race wins, they'd use it. Come to think of it, why isn't some AWD rally car taking the cake there?

But look beyond to other races which feature unlimited classes - like the Nurburgring 24hr - when was the last time an AWD car won there? Why not a Gallardo over the 911?

Why doesn't anybody race the 911 Turbo, with its massive power/torque and AWD? Why do they race GT3 variations?

In 2003 the Audis were not quite as unrestricted. It was fun to watch them as they just smoked everyone early in the races, but as all that weight took it's toll late in the race, they'd start going backwards through the field as their brakes and tires went away. In 2004, the SCCA relaxed the restrictions on the RS6 and it cleaned up. In racing it really comes down to who gets the breaks when the rulebook comes out. As stated, Audi beat BMW in both 2003 and 2004 in Speed GT.
2003

2004



I'm an equal opportunity forum member.