ESS VT3 - LC built engine failure in 2,000 miles

[Superfly_M3]

So if he tried to resolve things more diplomatically, how would it be different right now?
Sometimes sounding the alarm is the best course of action.

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by Dashmann

Sucks to be you. Maybe next time look to resolve things more diplomatically, one on one, before sounding the fire alarm and burning yourself in the process.

I was fucked off even prior to the blow. There was no diplomatic resolution in the situation when I paid full pocket for the thing, it appeared not working in a short period of time and the guys started saying about no warranty and any repair to be based on hourly basis. That is full bullshit!

There was no fire alarm from me - just share of facts after 3rd blown engine in a row. That's it.

I was as loyal as possible making also ESS business in Russia and marketing them everywhere. At the end - I am nobody for them.

Ok, life continues

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Lute

Where the F* do you get these things? Funny pictures are so hot right now.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by filinm3

As for current rebuild, I am dependent on AJ in order of those 2 pistons from Mahle cause he is the only person who could order them... Hope, he would do this... Otherwise, shitty story from any perspective.

I've got all the specs on the crank, rods, pistons. I could give you all the specs you need to call Mahle and order the pistons on your own. I have a spreadsheet from Mahle that I can fill in with all of the crank, rod, and piston specs. It's all the specs they need to order the pistons in lower compression ratio for you. If you need this, then just let me know.

But as kawasaki00 mentioned, you should probably order a full set of pistons, not only two. But regardless of what you decide, just let me know if you need the piston specs to order directly from Mahle, and I'll send them to you.

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I've got all the specs on the crank, rods, pistons. I could give you all the specs you need to call Mahle and order the pistons on your own. I have a spreadsheet from Mahle that I can fill in with all of the crank, rod, and piston specs. It's all the specs they need to order the pistons in lower compression ratio for you. If you need this, then just let me know.

But as kawasaki00 mentioned, you should probably order a full set of pistons, not only two. But regardless of what you decide, just let me know if you need the piston specs to order directly from Mahle, and I'll send them to you.

So many thanks to you being so kind to help me

I am hoping for AJ's step in that respect. Otherwise, would let you know)

[Arben72]

Wow, respect to you Sergei for running one of the most powerful m3's in the world for so long. Just wondering, how's your transmission holding up and what mods do you have to it. I'm assuming you have a 6mt so you probably changed your clutch atleast...

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by Arben72

Wow, respect to you Sergei for running one of the most powerful m3's in the world for so long. Just wondering, how's your transmission holding up and what mods do you have to it. I'm assuming you have a 6mt so you probably changed your clutch atleast...

DCT

No issues at all)))) DCT is very reliable and strong with any power even up to VT3's 680-700 whp...

The key to its long life is correct usage while pushing hard... If you would mash the pedal while WOT being in D mode, you would likely destroy DCT i very short period of time... If you would always go WOT in S mode only, this transmission is very-very strong

[GIdriver]

Originally Posted by filinm3

DCT

No issues at all)))) DCT is very reliable and strong with any power even up to VT3's 680-700 whp...

The key to its long life is correct usage while pushing hard... If you would mash the pedal while WOT being in D mode, you would likely destroy DCT i very short period of time... If you would always go WOT in S mode only, this transmission is very-very strong

This is good to know. Others with heavily modified M3's with DCT have stated the same, as long as you know how to use it (the DCT).

Hope you can sort everything out soon.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I'd like to see any max RPM dyno's from either of these two YSI builds that show anything near 800 whp? Not saying they don't exist, but am saying they haven't been posted here before. I know of one dyno that ends at 7700 RPMs that was posted here. To me that's only a proof of concept without max RPM, not an actual proven project/product. Others are free to disagree. I've never seen a dyno for the AA project and would like to see one posted.

Just because it's not posted on the forums, doesn't mean it exists. Here's a video of the AA R&D car running the Low Compression setup, it's still undergoing testing & Active is a company that prefers to wait to until the product is near completion before publicizing.

The Gintani car that stopped revving at 7700 RPMs was because the DCT trans clutches were no longer capable of holding the power. There is a car in the Tri-State are with a 4.5L Stroker, YSI build, and 6MT. The car is finishing up it's break in and should be getting final dyno/street tuning soon. Looking at that dyno graph that stops around 7700 RPMs, the YSI blower is making between 25-30 WHP per 1 Lb of Boost (we can estimate this because it's a Centri blower, boost is fixed & progressive with RPM, so you can measure gains over a specific RPM window). At 19 psi for pump (93), he's looking at just over 850 WHP and 25 psi (116) somewhere in the 1000 WHP. The fact that this owner has gone with a 4.5L stroker build will definitely make it interesting to see where the TQ numbers land.

Here's a pic of the engine (with the new Gintani mani & YSI blower) from another BMW forum

[s85e90]

Those Gintani cars look real good. I like the mondo BOV but where it's placed ( and this may not matter) but makes me wonder that considering the valve is almost always releasing into the puller style fan front of it, I wonder if they're may be cooling issues over time??

[M5Rlz]

Originally Posted by Superfly_M3

So if he tried to resolve things more diplomatically, how would it be different right now?
Sometimes sounding the alarm is the best course of action.

Yeah really if I dropped that much multiple times.. I'd have called a lawyer after 3 lmao especially if problems were proven to be caused not by my miss use or abuse.

Sucks OP hopefully they hook you with something.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

The Gintani car that stopped revving at 7700 RPMs was because the DCT trans clutches were no longer capable of holding the power.

So what is the max safe amount for the DCT?

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I've got all the specs on the crank, rods, pistons. I could give you all the specs you need to call Mahle and order the pistons on your own. I have a spreadsheet from Mahle that I can fill in with all of the crank, rod, and piston specs. It's all the specs they need to order the pistons in lower compression ratio for you. If you need this, then just let me know.

But as kawasaki00 mentioned, you should probably order a full set of pistons, not only two. But regardless of what you decide, just let me know if you need the piston specs to order directly from Mahle, and I'll send them to you.

Could you please elaborate on the necessity of ordering full set of pistons instead of 2? What are the drawbacks?

Thank you in advance!

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Just because it's not posted on the forums, doesn't mean it exists.

Oh believe me...I know. Before I tell somebody of the successes of company XYZ, I will want to see bonafide successes and proven results. Vieos of a car starting, videos shot 1.4 years ago on projects that have since disappeared, and dyno's that don't go to max RPM are not final products. That's why I label them proofs of concept.

Here's a video of the AA R&D car running the Low Compression setup, it's still undergoing testing & Active is a company that prefers to wait to until the product is near completion before publicizing.

This video is a really good example of what I'm talking about. The video was posted on September 10th 2012. The dyno's of that car were added to the Dyno Database on September 13th, 2012. The dyno files were made available by AA to download through the Dyno Database. Sadly I haven't seen any updates in the past 1.4 years.

http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=529

The Gintani car that stopped revving at 7700 RPMs was because the DCT trans clutches were no longer capable of holding the power. There is a car in the Tri-State are with a 4.5L Stroker, YSI build, and 6MT. The car is finishing up it's break in and should be getting final dyno/street tuning soon. Looking at that dyno graph that stops around 7700 RPMs, the YSI blower is making between 25-30 WHP per 1 Lb of Boost (we can estimate this because it's a Centri blower, boost is fixed & progressive with RPM, so you can measure gains over a specific RPM window). At 19 psi for pump (93), he's looking at just over 850 WHP and 25 psi (116) somewhere in the 1000 WHP. The fact that this owner has gone with a 4.5L stroker build will definitely make it interesting to see where the TQ numbers land.

BTW, the Gintani YSI car was running MS-109, not pump-93. And as long as the DCT can't hold the power, there is no final product to talk about.

And supercharged stroker has been done four years ago too. It was done on low boost, high compression, and V3 blower. Monster torque.

The examples above are all proofs of concept to me because there are no final products to show for them. Before I say XYZ Corp can build an 850whp PRODUCT, I want to see more than a proof of concept; I want to see final results that the companies will bring to the public to promote and talk about. Feel free to disagree...but these are all examples of proofs of concepts to me.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by filinm3

Could you please elaborate on the necessity of ordering full set of pistons instead of 2? What are the drawbacks?

Thank you in advance!

Here's my concerns.

Weight. You want the pistons all to be within the same range of weight. They shouldn't be more than a few grams apart of each other. If you order a set together, this is practically guaranteed. If you order two bare pistons, I'm not sure how much they would differ than the originals. They may not differ at all.

Size. You will get a better chance of the pistons all matching each other's size if you order them together.

Using old pistons. Your old pistons may already be compromised. There could already be micro cracks or other damage in them that you cannot see. Your #4 piston came apart at the bottom, and it's possible the pieces hit the crankshaft on the upstroke and hit and damaged other pistons in ways you can't yet detect. The latter seems unlikely that you wouldn't notice the damage, but it's a risk I wouldn't want to take.

New pistons in old bores are bad enough, but old pistons in old bores from a different block are probably worse. I realize I may be in the minority here, but I've never liked the use of new pistons in an old hole without honing the block. I'm not sure if your block was honed or not, so I'm not casting judgement or making any assumptions. But using old pistons in an old hole is probably even worse. At the very least if you go this approach, you will need new rings for all the pistons, and I strongly recommend honing the block.

I'm just an armchair expert, I don't build engines. I would seek the council of actual engine builders on these topics to see what they say. I have a hunch that hard core engine builders will probably tell you something similar.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Here's my concerns.

Weight. You want the pistons all to be within the same range of weight. They shouldn't be more than a few grams apart of each other. If you order a set together, this is practically guaranteed. If you order two bare pistons, I'm not sure how much they would differ than the originals. They may not differ at all.

Size. You will get a better chance of the pistons all matching each other's size if you order them together.

Using old pistons. Your old pistons may already be compromised. There could already be micro cracks or other damage in them that you cannot see. Your #4 piston came apart at the bottom, and it's possible the pieces hit the crankshaft on the upstroke and hit and damaged other pistons in ways you can't yet detect. The latter seems unlikely that you wouldn't notice the damage, but it's a risk I wouldn't want to take.

New pistons in old bores are bad enough, but old pistons in old bores from a different block are probably worse. I realize I may be in the minority here, but I've never liked the use of new pistons in an old hole without honing the block. I'm not sure if your block was honed or not, so I'm not casting judgement or making any assumptions. But using old pistons in an old hole is probably even worse. At the very least if you go this approach, you will need new rings for all the pistons, and I strongly recommend honing the block.

I'm just an armchair expert, I don't build engines. I would seek the council of actual engine builders on these topics to see what they say. I have a hunch that hard core engine builders will probably tell you something similar.

I agree...

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Here's my concerns.

Weight. You want the pistons all to be within the same range of weight. They shouldn't be more than a few grams apart of each other. If you order a set together, this is practically guaranteed. If you order two bare pistons, I'm not sure how much they would differ than the originals. They may not differ at all.

Size. You will get a better chance of the pistons all matching each other's size if you order them together.

Using old pistons. Your old pistons may already be compromised. There could already be micro cracks or other damage in them that you cannot see. Your #4 piston came apart at the bottom, and it's possible the pieces hit the crankshaft on the upstroke and hit and damaged other pistons in ways you can't yet detect. The latter seems unlikely that you wouldn't notice the damage, but it's a risk I wouldn't want to take.

New pistons in old bores are bad enough, but old pistons in old bores from a different block are probably worse. I realize I may be in the minority here, but I've never liked the use of new pistons in an old hole without honing the block. I'm not sure if your block was honed or not, so I'm not casting judgement or making any assumptions. But using old pistons in an old hole is probably even worse. At the very least if you go this approach, you will need new rings for all the pistons, and I strongly recommend honing the block.

I'm just an armchair expert, I don't build engines. I would seek the council of actual engine builders on these topics to see what they say. I have a hunch that hard core engine builders will probably tell you something similar.

Thank you for all this!

AJ told me to install 2 pistons and 8 new rings at least.

I would call the shop tomorrow with respect to honing.

I really want to resolve current situation as fast as possible and with minimal cost... Maybe, I would also build 2nd race engine in parallel to this for future 1000+ hp project

And also, what do you think caused such a wear on main bearings? Maybe some problem was also with oil supply?

I should understand now what parts to insert into the engine for healthy run.

Decided to use OEM main bearings, OEM 702/703 rod bearings, Cometic head gasket, ARP studs... Right approach?

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Oh believe me...I know. Before I tell somebody of the successes of company XYZ, I will want to see bonafide successes and proven results. Vieos of a car starting, videos shot 1.4 years ago on projects that have since disappeared, and dyno's that don't go to max RPM are not final products. That's why I label them proofs of concept.

This video is a really good example of what I'm talking about. The video was posted on September 10th 2012. The dyno's of that car were added to the Dyno Database on September 13th, 2012. The dyno files were made available by AA to download through the Dyno Database. Sadly I haven't seen any updates in the past 1.4 years.

http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=529

BTW, the Gintani YSI car was running MS-109, not pump-93. And as long as the DCT can't hold the power, there is no final product to talk about.

And supercharged stroker has been done four years ago too. It was done on low boost, high compression, and V3 blower. Monster torque.

The examples above are all proofs of concept to me because there are no final products to show for them. Before I say XYZ Corp can build an 850whp PRODUCT, I want to see more than a proof of concept; I want to see final results that the companies will bring to the public to promote and talk about. Feel free to disagree...but these are all examples of proofs of concepts to me.

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by filinm3

Thank you for all this!

AJ told me to install 2 pistons and 8 new rings at least.

I would call the shop tomorrow with respect to honing.

I really want to resolve current situation as fast as possible and with minimal cost... Maybe, I would also build 2nd race engine in parallel to this for future 1000+ hp project

And also, what do you think caused such a wear on main bearings? Maybe some problem was also with oil supply?

I should understand now what parts to insert into the engine for healthy run.

Decided to use OEM main bearings, OEM 702/703 rod bearings, Cometic head gasket, ARP studs... Right approach?

And also, if the block is honed, is it possible to use my current pistons or the size of the bore would not fit to that of the pistons???

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Although that is true a good set of gauges flash colors at you and set off a audible alarm like "hey dumbie something is wrong"
Thats why we race and I also use in my car Spek gauges

Another thing to keep in mind, op.

Kawasaki00 and regular guy have been so helpful...It's mighty nice of you.

[MilehighM3]

From reading this thread I gather that any fault is too complicated and there is too much unknown information to pin it on any one person. The thing that I am curious about would be the fuel pump setup. I presume the factory pump is utilized as a primary pump and the second pump is aftermarket and used as the second stage based on rpm and/or boost levels in lieu of the factory dual stage setup with a single pump? If so, and the OP did indeed take it easy on the car on his way home, the fpr failure/fueling issue wouldn't have shown up until he tried to do some pulls on the road. Provided the information is accurate and the issue only showed up on his initial runs, how would that issue not have shown on the ESS dyno since they did roughly 40 pulls? By that logic, any damage could've already been done or at least initiated at that time. Also by their own words the OP's setup is the same as Drew's car, so why the need for 40 pulls followed by further testing? If I'm in their shoes I don't build, dyno and/or long term test the car without the gauges they deemed necessary for daily operation. That seems unprofessional to me and a little half assed given the investment he made as a VT3 customer.

I also concur with regular guy that the OP should be replacing all 8 pistons and performing the necessary machine work to fit them properly. Added costs are involved, but they will by minor compared to another failure due to compromised pistons. Do it right and it will last a long time.

Best of luck getting it resolved.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Oh believe me...I know. Before I tell somebody of the successes of company XYZ, I will want to see bonafide successes and proven results. Vieos of a car starting, videos shot 1.4 years ago on projects that haev since disappeared, and dyno's that don't go to max RPM are not final products. That's I label them proofs of concept.



This video is a really good example of what I'm talking about. The video was posted on September 10th 2012. The dyno's of that car were added to the Dyno Database on September 13th, 2012. The dyno files were made available by AA to download through the Dyno Database. Sadly I haven't seen any updates in the past 1.4 years.

BTW, the Gintani YSI car was running MS-109, not pump-93. And as long as the DCT can't hold the power, there is no final product to talk about.

And supercharged stroker has been done four years ago too. It was done on low boost, high compression, and V3 blower. Monster torque.

The examples above are all proofs of concept to me because there are no final products to show for them. Before I say XYZ Corp can build an 850whp PRODUCT, I want to see more than a proof of concept; I want to see final results that the companies will bring to the public to promote and talk about. Feel free to disagree...but these are all examples of proofs of concepts to me.

Well said, I concur, and kudo's to you for offering help here. Hopefully all that is possible, but I'm pessimistic about it, and doubtful that we will ever see big power YSI setups as a viable production option from any of the top FI S65 vendors in the near future, like we do with Domestic cars, AMG or GTR setups.

I think Mit_Boost is a intelligent, reasonable guy and I hope he's right, but no offense brother, I think you may be a little off with your optimism here, this notion there are going to be S65 FI options with 800WHP coming soon from any of the vendors, is for the most part wishful thinking. Anyone who goes this route now will have to get used to their car being away from them for a long time, and maybe never fully realizing what they hoped for, there are plenty of horror stories that people are not aware of as well. Eventually it may happen, but it's years away from ever being a reality, in terms of reliability, etc.

Sergei, whatever route you decide to go, I'd install an AEM fail safe gauge which Kawasaki mentioned, it's a good $300 insurance policy, it can kill power if your car starts to go lean and can save your engine. I plan on installing one eventually. The car for the most part has let me know if there is a potential issue, but the AFR, and FP gauges have helped me diagnose a few things before something bad could have happened. Again, best of luck to you.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by US///M3

Another thing to keep in mind, op.

Kawasaki00 and regular guy have been so helpful...It's mighty nice of you.

See we can agree, well said.