GTR vs M3. Any reasons to not get a GTR?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by devo

The GTR is quite an accomplishment, however, it is not the Holy Grail as you might suggest. The dual clutch trans doesn't shift meaningfully faster -or even faster than PDK for example and it's nice to say that the 480/485 HP engine can do X, Y and Z in whatever time, when it's under rated by 50 ponies. Nissan has added roughly $12k to the price of the car in 18 months. A real life 3 year old 997tt with a six speed will walk away from one during any in-gear acceration because the GTR is so freaking heavy. Try replicated multiple hard track laps and see how many times the trans over heats. It is a great car though.

+1, well stated. Impressive, chock full of great technology, but also performs so well because it is under rated.

[FStop7]

Originally Posted by Archon

The GTR is a great performance car but let's not forget what makes it up.

Essentially a rice rocket in composition. What does it have?

A big displacement V6 with two turbos...real tough engineering (sarcasm)

Actually, it is pretty tough engineering. The motor's got to be durable enough to meet OEM longevity requirements and withstand years of relatively high amounts of boost. Plus the engine itself is an interesting design - each bank is independent, there is no crossover tube. So you basically have what amounts to a pair of inline 3 cylinder engines working together. That requires a lot of work to make sure the airflow balance is correct, etc.

Transmission, Brakes, and Suspension made by aftermarket companies.

How is that different than BMW? The M3 shocks are made by Sachs. Most car manufacturers use different OEMs. They design the parts and then outsource the production. Nissan designed the GTR's brakes, btw. That's why starting with the 2010 MY the GTR brakes no longer carry the Brembo logo on the calipers. Brembo manufactures them, but they're a Nissan design.

Anyway, you've already been thrashed enough for your dumb post. But I thought I'd go ahead and make you feel a little dumber, anyway.

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by devo

The GTR is quite an accomplishment, however, it is not the Holy Grail as you might suggest. The dual clutch trans doesn't shift meaningfully faster -or even faster than PDK for example and it's nice to say that the 480/485 HP engine can do X, Y and Z in whatever time, when it's under rated by 50 ponies. Nissan has added roughly $12k to the price of the car in 18 months. A real life 3 year old 997tt with a six speed will walk away from one during any in-gear acceration because the GTR is so freaking heavy. Try replicated multiple hard track laps and see how many times the trans over heats. It is a great car though.

I see your point but consider that the GTR has been around for less than 2 years; the P cars have evolved for much longer. Give the GTR a few more years to really solidify its reputation.

[devo]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

I see your point but consider that the GTR has been around for less than 2 years; the P cars have evolved for much longer. Give the GTR a few more years to really solidify its reputation.

Good point. I really appreciate what the GTR has attained and is capable of. What I don't like is all this how Nissan goes about it. Yes, the GTR has a low parasitic drive train power loss and applies power to the ground very effectively, but, it's power to weight is nothing to get all gooey in the pants about -like some others do.

Yes, Porsches have evolved and certainly Porsche got caught with their pants down and/or simply made some marketing changes to steer the Merc crowd towards the 997tt. Anyway, now that PAG sees a $73K Nissan -oops, I mean an $85k Nissan (until next week when it's $90k), running like it does, they realize that they (PAG) need to return the tt to it's origins.

With that said, the 2010 tt with PDK, 500 ponies, an optional sport suspension, revised suspension components ala GT2, a much broader -stronger torque band, with brakes ala the new GT3, Centerlock wheels in a 400 lb less package, should put a hurt on the GTR in a much prettier package, imo. Yes, it will cost a bunch more than the GTR, but you get what you pay for.

Oh, and when the 2010 tt is on its fifth or subsequent lap(s) it's tranny won't overheat nor will it need any serving and/or fluid changes.

Sorry for the rant, but this GTR stuff has become ridiculous.

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by devo

Good point. I really appreciate what the GTR has attained and is capable of. What I don't like is all this how Nissan goes about it. Yes, the GTR has a low parasitic drive train power loss and applies power to the ground very effectively, but, it's power to weight is nothing to get all gooey in the pants about -like some others do.

Yes, Porsches have evolved and certainly Porsche got caught with their pants down and/or simply made some marketing changes to steer the Merc crowd towards the 997tt. Anyway, now that PAG sees a $73K Nissan -oops, I mean an $85k Nissan (until next week when it's $90k), running like it does, they realize that they (PAG) need to return the tt to it's origins.

With that said, the 2010 tt with PDK, 500 ponies, an optional sport suspension, revised suspension components ala GT2, a much broader -stronger torque band, with brakes ala the new GT3, Centerlock wheels in a 400 lb less package, should put a hurt on the GTR in a much prettier package, imo. Yes, it will cost a bunch more than the GTR, but you get what you pay for.

Oh, and when the 2010 tt is on its fifth or subsequent lap(s) it's tranny won't overheat nor will it need any serving and/or fluid changes.

Sorry for the rant, but this GTR stuff has become ridiculous.

Well, I experienced the Nissan dealers service and I can say that it was not very good nor did it motivate me to buy the GTR....I bought the M3 instead. To me, its not just about the car but the experience as well. When I went to look at the GTR, ready to buy, they treated me like I was buying a $15k Altima...total BS. I figured that if I was being treated like crap while buying the car, I can only imagine how it would be when I brought it in for service. At the time, they wanted $30k+ for the GTR at Brown's Nissan in Arlington...essentially about $120k and the sales manager was being a total dick.

The car is amazing but I don't think Nissan has figured out that they are not selling this product to grandma or a teenage boy buying a less expensive car. The ones who purchase a GTR have probably experienced excellent service at other dealers (i.e., Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, Mercedez, Porsche). When I had my Infiniti G35 Coupe, going to the dealer was always a pleasurable experience...the sale, the maintenance...everything was top notch! I was very disappointing with the Nissan sales and service, which in turn contributed to me deciding against the GTR..at least for now.

-SZ

[devo]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

Well, I experienced the Nissan dealers service and I can say that it was not very good nor did it motivate me to buy the GTR....I bought the M3 instead. To me, its not just about the car but the experience as well. When I went to look at the GTR, ready to buy, they treated me like I was buying a $15k Altima...total BS. I figured that if I was being treated like crap while buying the car, I can only imagine how it would be when I brought it in for service. At the time, they wanted $30k+ for the GTR at Brown's Nissan in Arlington...essentially about $120k and the sales manager was being a total dick.

The car is amazing but I don't think Nissan has figured out that they are not selling this product to grandma or a teenage boy buying a less expensive car. The ones who purchase a GTR have probably experienced excellent service at other dealers (i.e., Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, Mercedez, Porsche). When I had my Infiniti G35 Coupe, going to the dealer was always a pleasurable experience...the sale, the maintenance...everything was top notch! I was very disappointing with the Nissan sales and service, which in turn contributed to me deciding against the GTR..at least for now.

-SZ

Your experience with Nissan was not unusual. When I looked at buying a Super Silver GTR, the Nissan hacks came over to the car because the battery was DOA. They placed the portable charger on the fender and started hooking the cables to the battery. The heavy charger was moving all over the top of the fender. Granted the car still had the shipping tape on it, but c'mon. I had to walk over there and tell those freakin monkeys to use some common sense. They saw me there and knew I was a possible buyer. During the same time frame another prospective buyer was getting his fat ass into the car and opened the door into the wall, putting a minor chip in the paint at the leading edge. Buyers can be moronic too, but I blame the dealer. You don't park the car that close to the wall and you do watch people who you are letting in the car.

[Quacker]

Originally Posted by devo

T Try replicated multiple hard track laps and see how many times the trans over heats. It is a great car though.

Are you speaking from experience or is it just internet BS that you've read on forums?
Because from my personal experience, and the experience of other GTR owners - in normal conditions, the transmission doesn't heat up after 1, 2, 3, 4....or even 20 laps around a 2 odd min track. The only time the transmission heats up is when the temp is like 40 degrees centigrade, but at that temp most cars will struggle.

[michaeldorian]

Originally Posted by devo

With that said, the 2010 tt with PDK, 500 ponies, an optional sport suspension, revised suspension components ala GT2, a much broader -stronger torque band, with brakes ala the new GT3, Centerlock wheels in a 400 lb less package, should put a hurt on the GTR in a much prettier package, imo. Yes, it will cost a bunch more than the GTR, but you get what you pay for.

Are these changes confirmed for the 2010 TT? I've never heard of the TT getting these changes. If so, this is good news. Competition is good.

[Quacker]

Originally Posted by devo

With that said, the 2010 tt with PDK, 500 ponies, an optional sport suspension, revised suspension components ala GT2, a much broader -stronger torque band, with brakes ala the new GT3, Centerlock wheels in a 400 lb less package, should put a hurt on the GTR in a much prettier package, imo. Yes, it will cost a bunch more than the GTR, but you get what you pay for.

.

You are making this up. From my knowledge, no info has been released for the 2011 911tt. Even what you say is true, by 2011, there will be a much improved version of the GTR. Porsche is playing catch up here.
"you get what you pay for." True to some extent but not all the time. Ever heard of the "law of diminishing returns?" 997tt owners in Australia know that law very very well, considering the fact that the 997tt costs twice as much as a GTR over there

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by Quacker

You are making this up. From my knowledge, no info has been released for the 2011 911tt. Even what you say is true, by 2011, there will be a much improved version of the GTR. Porsche is playing catch up here.
"you get what you pay for." True to some extent but not all the time. Ever heard of the "law of diminishing returns?" 997tt owners in Australia know that law very very well, considering the fact that the 997tt costs twice as much as a GTR over there

The info from the European Porsche board claims 500hp for the base 911 Turbo, 530hp for the "S" model. PDK, bigger brakes and suspension refinements are all listed as upgrades, too. Here is a good thread:

http://www.rennteam.com/forum/page1.html?vs=3#p20113168

As far as the standard GT-R receiving any major upgrades for 2011, I highly doubt it. Nissan is going to focus on the launch of the V-Spec, which will supposedly be available in Europe.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by Quacker

You are making this up. From my knowledge, no info has been released for the 2011 911tt. Even what you say is true, by 2011, there will be a much improved version of the GTR. Porsche is playing catch up here.

The official press release is only some days away, so I wouldn't be surprised if Devo's information was accurate.


Best regards,
south

[graider]

here is a very good read about the GTR. I think this guy is spot on about the strenghts and weakness of the GTR.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/27/r...a-have-a-soul/

[bobbyd1961]

Originally Posted by ScotyH

I'm starting to fall in love with GTR performance but I'm still on the fence.

I think I can live with the lesser quality interior & the "no warranty" on drive train if launch control is used.

Anyone have any pearls of info that could be used as ammo to talk me out of getting a GTR?

GTR people go what? M3 people go WOW

[ScotyH]

Originally Posted by bobbyd1961

GTR people go what? M3 people go WOW

?

[devo]

Originally Posted by michaeldorian

Are these changes confirmed for the 2010 TT? I've never heard of the TT getting these changes. If so, this is good news. Competition is good.

It will be confirmed very shortly.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Quacker

You are making this up. From my knowledge, no info has been released for the 2011 911tt. Even what you say is true, by 2011, there will be a much improved version of the GTR. Porsche is playing catch up here.
"you get what you pay for." True to some extent but not all the time. Ever heard of the "law of diminishing returns?" 997tt owners in Australia know that law very very well, considering the fact that the 997tt costs twice as much as a GTR over there

Time will tell if I am making this up or simply wrong. The 997tt will likely be a MY2010. Anyway, what does Australia's prices have to do with my post regarding prices in America?

[devo]

Originally Posted by Quacker

Are you speaking from experience or is it just internet BS that you've read on forums?
Because from my personal experience, and the experience of other GTR owners - in normal conditions, the transmission doesn't heat up after 1, 2, 3, 4....or even 20 laps around a 2 odd min track. The only time the transmission heats up is when the temp is like 40 degrees centigrade, but at that temp most cars will struggle.

Just internet dribble. Hey, typically, where there's smoke there's fire.

[michaeldorian]

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2009...-is-built.aspx

Pretty cool thread about how the GTR is built.

[Quacker]

Originally Posted by graider

here is a very good read about the GTR. I think this guy is spot on about the strenghts and weakness of the GTR.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/27/r...a-have-a-soul/

Yes, like any high performance car, the GTR is meant to be driven hard. It amuses me when wannabe journalists take a GTR for a slow drive around town and then complain that it's boring.
The same can be said about people who complain that the seats are not all leather (People who track their cars know that full leather seats are garbage - too much sliding) and that there is no automatic rain sensing wipers.

The article is dead wrong about launch control. Launch control has not being removed but rather reprogrammed. It can be done with VDC on. Once the 3 buttons are set to their correct position, step on the brake and you must SLAM on the gas. If the gas is just pressed slowly, LC will not be activated.

[Quacker]

Originally Posted by devo

Time will tell if I am making this up or simply wrong. The 997tt will likely be a MY2010. Anyway, what does Australia's prices have to do with my post regarding prices in America?

You said that "you get for what you pay for"
Tell me then, is the 997tt twice better than the GTR, since it costs two times more?
apart from the slightly better interior with the extra few hides taken from grain fed cows that are massaged daily, i cannot objectively see where the 997tt is better than the GTR. Don't tell me that those few extra pieces of cow hide is worth as much as a GTR?

[devo]

Originally Posted by Quacker

You said that "you get for what you pay for"
Tell me then, is the 997tt twice better than the GTR, since it costs two times more?
apart from the slightly better interior with the extra few hides taken from grain fed cows that are massaged daily, i cannot objectively see where the 997tt is better than the GTR. Don't tell me that those few extra pieces of cow hide is worth as much as a GTR?

A 997tt is not twice the money of a GTR in America. A well optioned 2009 tt will cost (my was less in 2007) about $138K. A similarly equipped GTR costs $86K? When I multiply 86 X 2 I don't get 138, maybe it's me.

I do believe that the 911tt has better quality than a GTR, just like a GTR has slightly better build quality than a Corvette. I do not believe that a tt has close to $50k more quality but that's the price of admission. Just like if price was no object some would prefer a f430 although not really much if any faster than a turbo. I/we don't buy exotic type cars (I'm including the GTR here) with value as the first priority. I'll save buying the Honda for that.

[moosety2009]

Originally Posted by devo

A 997tt is not twice the money of a GTR in America. A well optioned 2009 tt will cost (my was less in 2007) about $138K. A similarly equipped GTR costs $86K? When I multiply 86 X 2 I don't get 138, maybe it's me.

I do believe that the 911tt has better quality than a GTR, just like a GTR has slightly better build quality than a Corvette. I do not believe that a tt has close to $50k more quality but that's the price of admission. Just like if price was no object some would prefer a f430 although not really much if any faster than a turbo. I/we don't buy exotic type cars (I'm including the GTR here) with value as the first priority. I'll save buying the Honda for that.

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2009...-is-built.aspx

If you need a better way to gauge quality.