The unacceptable danger of modern track-day coaching - Road & Track

[USCTrojanMan29]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

I don't think "how many years" of track experience automatically equates to level of driver skill. Some guys excel at a much faster pace than others because of a variety of reasons.

But I totally agree on beginners running R Comps. The craziest thing is when I see guys running r comps and still running traction control. It's like putting training wheels on a mountain bike. I can understand the addiction to mod to be faster though. Everyone else is doing it and lap times become the benchmark.

I recently went back to street tires at the track and my street tire times are getting awfully close to my R comp times. That's far more rewarding to me (and better for my wallet).

We'll have to agree to disagree...since I'm not racing for money, for trophies, and/or trophy girls I'll probably never go above 7/10 with traction control off. There's just a lot more to lose than gain. Yeah I know, I turn the nannies off and really learn how to drive my car...not when going 8/10+ in a scary fast car. All it takes is a tiny mistake and it's game over! I'm out there to have a good time with a good group of guys and trying to best my "assisted" personal best times.

[USCTrojanMan29]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

I will not instruct in a car that has one level of safety for the driver - and a lesser level of safety for the passenger. Most reputable HPDE organizations will not permit such a car through Tech inspection.

+1 hence why I put a 6pt harness in for my passenger. He/she shouldn't have less protection than I have.

[PrimeBMW]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

I will not instruct in a car that has one level of safety for the driver - and a lesser level of safety for the passenger. Most reputable HPDE organizations will not permit such a car through Tech inspection.

Exactly. This was not a reputable organization. I'll post a video soon....

[PrimeBMW]

Okay. So this is not my video and personally don't know the people filming. But this a good example of how NOT to run a track event. I don’t have to tell you the particular rules for this event.........if it looks wrong it is/was. I will not run with this group.....its just too dangerous. BTW the yellow car is banned from other groups. IMHO there are a number of cars/drivers in this video that should never be allowed on the track again.

[Estoril Blue]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

Okay. So this is not my video and personally don't know the people filming. But this a good example of how NOT to run a track event. I don’t have to tell you the particular rules for this event.........if it looks wrong it is/was. I will not run with this group.....its just too dangerous. BTW the yellow car is banned from other groups. IMHO there are a number of cars/drivers in this video that should never be allowed on the track again.

Does the "Instructor" in the video (two segments) actually ever say anything? Why is he in the car?

[Triple M]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

Okay. So this is not my video and personally don't know the people filming. But this a good example of how NOT to run a track event. I don’t have to tell you the particular rules for this event.........if it looks wrong it is/was. I will not run with this group.....its just too dangerous. BTW the yellow car is banned from other groups. IMHO there are a number of cars/drivers in this video that should never be allowed on the track again.

Yike!
Funny and scary at the same time. Glad no one got hurt.

[PrimeBMW]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

Does the "Instructor" in the video (two segments) actually ever say anything? Why is he in the car?

No instructor. Just an advanced driver giving a ride to a friend.

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by USCTrojanMan29

We'll have to agree to disagree...since I'm not racing for money, for trophies, and/or trophy girls I'll probably never go above 7/10 with traction control off. There's just a lot more to lose than gain. Yeah I know, I turn the nannies off and really learn how to drive my car...not when going 8/10+ in a scary fast car. All it takes is a tiny mistake and it's game over! I'm out there to have a good time with a good group of guys and trying to best my "assisted" personal best times.

but if you aren't even getting past the level of grip of certain tires, what makes you move to a tire with even more grip?

I'd rather be learning then harping over PBs.

[M4isKing]

that video is just full of wow.

[L4ces]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

Okay. So this is not my video and personally don't know the people filming. But this a good example of how NOT to run a track event. I don’t have to tell you the particular rules for this event.........if it looks wrong it is/was. I will not run with this group.....its just too dangerous. BTW the yellow car is banned from other groups. IMHO there are a number of cars/drivers in this video that should never be allowed on the track again.

I miss that track! G, I see why you would not run in that group. It looks like a race!

[USCTrojanMan29]

Originally Posted by M4isKing

but if you aren't even getting past the level of grip of certain tires, what makes you move to a tire with even more grip?

I'd rather be learning then harping over PBs.

I've already gotten past the grip level of street tires and basically there with the NT01/RA1s tires. I know because of the sound of the tires and because the car starts sliding/back-end wanting to come out on me (this is where the TC/SC come on). I've only run scrub R6s a few times but can tell you that the TC/SC barely ever come on because of the higher grip levels and me not getting past the grip level. Yeah, I can turn TC/SC off running R6s but I'm going faster and any mistake is multiplied that much more. I'm not really out at the track trying to slide the car around and seeing if I can save it (chances are I probably won't)....I want to keep it on the track and if I do make a mistake hopefully the computer will cushion the blow.

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

Okay. So this is not my video and personally don't know the people filming. But this a good example of how NOT to run a track event. I dont have to tell you the particular rules for this event.........if it looks wrong it is/was. I will not run with this group.....its just too dangerous. BTW the yellow car is banned from other groups. IMHO there are a number of cars/drivers in this video that should never be allowed on the track again.

Looks like romper room

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

A friend of mine was coaching a beginner with a Miata today. RA1s.......the student decided not to brake for corner two........they made contact with the wall. The coach was sore but continued with his day. I just got a Facebook message the he is at the emergency room to get checked out. Apparently his condition got worse.

Dang, I hope he's alright. That sucks.

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Once your close to the limit of lap times with a certain set up don't you reduce weight, add tire, add power or something to go faster? I have done things stepwise getting what I can at a lower level then upgrading. In a way it's buying lap times yes but not before I'm at the point I need more.

I don't see an issue with modding. Some mods will add reliability or safety. Some will be for speed and fun. It's when you start doing it in a competitive manner in a non-competitive environment. Adding aero as an intermediate driver? IMO, that's a "I need to beat a lap time" mod.

But being an advanced driver isn't a license to mod. I occasionally still drive my E90 M3 on track. All it has are dinan springs, non-EDC shocks, camber plates, ST BBK and NT01s...I can still keep up with just about anything short of a lightened race car or something very heavily modded. Now that's fun!

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

Okay. So this is not my video and personally don't know the people filming. But this a good example of how NOT to run a track event. I don’t have to tell you the particular rules for this event.........if it looks wrong it is/was. I will not run with this group.....its just too dangerous. BTW the yellow car is banned from other groups. IMHO there are a number of cars/drivers in this video that should never be allowed on the track again.

That is a total sh1t show! As I've always said...careful who you HPDE with!

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Dang, I hope he's alright. That sucks.



I don't see an issue with modding. Some mods will add reliability or safety. Some will be for speed and fun. It's when you start doing it in a competitive manner in a non-competitive environment. Adding aero as an intermediate driver? IMO, that's a "I need to beat a lap time" mod.

But being an advanced driver isn't a license to mod. I occasionally still drive my E90 M3 on track. All it has are dinan springs, non-EDC shocks, camber plates, ST BBK and NT01s...I can still keep up with just about anything short of a lightened race car or something very heavily modded. Now that's fun!

I may be guilty of modding too much. It's a hobby just like the driving is I guess. I'm still not an advanced driver just a decent intermediate. I'm critical of my driving as it should be. Probably pretty unorthodox in some of my approach. My problem with any aspiration is that when I feel I've gone as far as I can go I lose the drive and interest. It has happened with golf, motocross, powerlifting, tennis and so on where i have competed. hope that doesn't ever happen here.

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by USCTrojanMan29

I've already gotten past the grip level of street tires and basically there with the NT01/RA1s tires. I know because of the sound of the tires and because the car starts sliding/back-end wanting to come out on me (this is where the TC/SC come on). I've only run scrub R6s a few times but can tell you that the TC/SC barely ever come on because of the higher grip levels and me not getting past the grip level. Yeah, I can turn TC/SC off running R6s but I'm going faster and any mistake is multiplied that much more. I'm not really out at the track trying to slide the car around and seeing if I can save it (chances are I probably won't)....I want to keep it on the track and if I do make a mistake hopefully the computer will cushion the blow.

how are your lap times at the local tracks?

my buddy was 1 sec off driving in granny mode in his gt3 vs his fully modded whole shabang m3. he was driving 7/10 on cruise control and on stock tires

[Sleeper519]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Dang, I hope he's alright. That sucks.



I don't see an issue with modding. Some mods will add reliability or safety. Some will be for speed and fun. It's when you start doing it in a competitive manner in a non-competitive environment. Adding aero as an intermediate driver? IMO, that's a "I need to beat a lap time" mod.

But being an advanced driver isn't a license to mod. I occasionally still drive my E90 M3 on track. All it has are dinan springs, non-EDC shocks, camber plates, ST BBK and NT01s...I can still keep up with just about anything short of a lightened race car or something very heavily modded. Now that's fun!

lol, that sounds like a pretty competitive statement.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Sleeper519

lol, that sounds like a pretty competitive statement.

Lol...I'm a little competitive...I'll admit that.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Lol...I'm a little competitive...I'll admit that.

That's a big part of the fun, out there running with a buddy.

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

That's a big part of the fun, out there running with a buddy.

It is but I agree with bigjae. If I'm running pretty damn close in times as my buddies with less go fast bits, as far as I'm concerned, I'm #winning haha. And we rub it in each others' faces.

If my laptimes are better, even better!

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by M4isKing

It is but I agree with bigjae. If I'm running pretty damn close in times as my buddies with less go fast bits, as far as I'm concerned, I'm #winning haha. And we rub it in each others' faces.

If my laptimes are better, even better!

Agreed. I usually look to cars that should be faster and try to embarrass them if I can.

[USCTrojanMan29]

Originally Posted by M4isKing

how are your lap times at the local tracks?

my buddy was 1 sec off driving in granny mode in his gt3 vs his fully modded whole shabang m3. he was driving 7/10 on cruise control and on stock tires

Here are my best tires at the So Cal tracks that I run on:

Buttonwillow 13CW in Feb 2014 I ran a 1:57-1:58 on NT01/RA1s

Buttonwillow 1CW in May 2014 I ran 2:04-2:05 on NT01/RA1s and 2:02-2:03 on scrub R6s

Chuckwalla CW in March 2014 I ran 1:58 on scrub R6s

Chuckwalla CCW in March 2014 I ran 2:00 on NT01/RA1s

I was going to go out with POC to Chuckwalla this past weekend but I got sick so I'll go out with PCA SD in 3 weeks when they run CW. I'm going to run all 3 tires that I have (street RE-11s on heavy 19s, NT01/RA1s, and new R6s). I'll be curious to see what the tires are with each tire. Then back to Buttonwillow with PCA SD running 13CW in Nov....first time on the newly paved track.