Is there a Vorsteiner Lip Replica yet?

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by ACZakka325i

Can I buy my replica yet?!

Me too. Too many Vorsteiner distributors arguing in this thread for my liking.

[Bob@BPS]

Originally Posted by King Tut

Me too. Too many Vorsteiner distributors arguing in this thread for my liking.

At least WE have the honesty to admit we have a vested interest in you guys not supporting unscrupulous blatant copies of a product we sell. The sales of those products help us all pay forum vendor fees that support this great forum.




God Bless America...support this great nation by buying American whenever possible.

[Noodlefoxes]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

+2
I've purchased genuine BMW CSL parts from Crevier BMW in Santa Ana

Woot woot Crevier!

[gthirtyfizle]

Bottom line here is everyone is after their own interest. From the Vendors supporting Vorseteiner in order to sell their products to eclipse motorsports trying to come up with his own design which is clearly going to compete with vorsteiner in order to boost his company. Therefore, us, the customers, trying to watch over our own interest as well like evryone else, are patiently waiting for either the cheaper authentic product, or replica if it comes down to it. Because honestly tho, with all due respect, 800-1000 dollars for a diffuser is just plain rediculous, wether its profitable or not. But I am not bashing anyone, u gotta do what u gotta do....

In the meantime, I just want my polyurethane Vorsteiner lip lol. See, i couldnt possibly go against them or else i would be a hypocrite.

But I must admit, its very entertaining seeing the vendors going at it

[eclipsisNA]

Originally Posted by gthirtyfizle

Bottom line here is everyone is after their own interest.

You're right, everyone in this thread is out for their own self-interest, myself included. The vendors and I should have stayed out so that a non-biased debate could have happened between end users.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPS

At least WE have the honesty to admit we have a vested interest in you guys not supporting unscrupulous blatant copies of a product we sell. The sales of those products help us all pay forum vendor fees that support this great forum.

Cut down your profit margin or tell Vorsteiner to lower theirs and you won't have to worry about us buying copies. It is all about supply and demand. If someone supplies a copy at a better price the demand will obviously be there. Perhaps that lowering of demand and excess supply will change the pricing on the Vorsteiner piece as well. I had a real Vorsteiner diffuser on my E46 M3, and I don't think it fit any better than any of the copies I saw while being over twice the cost.

[tightie]

Vorsteiner costs more because its guaranteed fitment. They probably made like 5 molds before they were happy with the final one. They have higher prices because you get what you paid for, a perfect part. I'm not trying to call anyone out here but everyone here is driving at least a 55k car. It's somewhat a high end sports car, you already know what you've gotten yourself into. You could of easily got a 335, 335s have many many knock off parts and the fitment sucks, go over to e90post and check it out.. You've gotta pay to play!

[SV Concepts]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPS

NOT TRUE. The margins on most products are paper thin and customer's expectations are high. In fact, there are many products where the profit is at or less than 10%. Then, from that, you have to cover credit card fees, plus pay all the other overhead. Most of the products that DO have a decent margin are cheap, so a higher percentage of a lower amount still means you don't make a lot of money.

I invite you to open your OWN online retail business and see if you get rich. Just call around and ask what it takes to open an account and what type of wholesale discounts you might get. The retailer is in the worst position. Parts whores are willing to give stuff away and your wholesale price doesn't change, just because you dropped your pants to match the college kid with the laptop working from Starbucks with no overhead. That means the retailer gets squeezed between the retail customer and the supplier.

Watch the industry and see how many go under in this economy over the next year, and then decide whether we're screwing people over while eating Grey Poupon from our Bentleys, sending drop-ship requests from our luxury yachts, and replying to posts from our Lear Jets. NOT!!

The best thing is you get to postulate these ridiculous statements behind a cloak of anonymity on the internet with no data to back up your assumptions. Tell ME where I can buy with a 90% profit margin and I'll hire you with a 6-figure salary. We'll be eating Grey Poupon from our Bentley together.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I'm pretty sure with our level of experience and our educational backgrounds, Nick and I could be making around double what we currently make operating JleviSW.com. Why do we do it? We are passionate about it, we have the freedom of being business owners, and, well, we love serving you guys. If you really knew how thin the margins are in this industry compared to other luxury goods, you, like my other entrepreneurial contacts, would have a hearty laugh.
JL

[SV Concepts]

Also, Vorsteiner parts are expensive. Why is this?

-Guaranteed fitment. Often, molds have to be made, remade, and remade again (why do you think it's been over a year since they started making the E90 bootlid? They've revised the mold at least 3 times that I know of
-Materials. It's carbon fiber. Do you know how expensive a roll of carbon fabric is now that Boeing, Ferrari, Lamborghini, and every housing contractor in America is buying it all up? Global carbon shortage, guys.
-Technology. Vacuum bagging machines, injection molding machines, CNC machines... this stuff is NOT cheap. You're talking millions of dollars. And do you have ANY idea what it takes to make a mold for a hood? Like, seriously? Think around twice as expensive as your M3. Try amortizing that over what, 50, 100 hoods you will sell? It adds up.
-Labor. All parts are made in the US, where Vorsteiner pays people living wages. Vorsteiner employees are not exploited, which is why they turn out such quality work.
-Legitimacy. Vorsteiner, unlike your average Taiwanese company, has a phone line, sales staff, engineers, and actual people you can call. They have an office you can visit. This stuff isn't free. People with 12 years experience in the automotive industry don't grow on trees - trust me, we know.
-Guarantee/Warranty/Peace of Mind. Do you know what would happen if your Vorsteiner parts didn't fit perfectly, started to yellow, or simply didn't meet your expectations? You get a new one. No bullshit. No questions. No conditions. It's happened to us twice, out of the thousands of parts we've sold for them. A customer let us know that the fitment wasn't spot on. One of the customers was actually in Thailand. Not only did Vorsteiner agree to exchange the hood... they insisted.

It's fine if that's not worth it to you. But don't make claims that Vorsteiner is raking it in hand over fist on every part. Why do you think they are constantly developing new parts for Porsche, Lamborghini, etc. Their model is based on volume, and often times, their parts aren't incredibly profitable.

Yes, you could come in and make a replica out of DVCF for half the price. That's because you aren't paying people to design it. Just copying it. You aren't paying American employees to service customers. You also probably aren't using the same technology. Not all DVCF is created equal. Do you know what CFHCM means? Do you know what the industry standards are for tensile strength? Structural rigidity? Do you know anything about crumple zones, resin grades, or epoxy? I don't mean to belittle you, but this isn't as simple as you think.

We spent a year selling the "other" stuff trying to compete with our competitors who were selling Vorsteiner. After a year of dealing with these Taiwanese manufacturers and their shoddy, poorly fitting, yellowing products, we came to Vorsteiner with our hats in our hands. We asked them to please forgive our aggression and to let us carry their products, which we had been researching and examining closely. We haven't turned back, nor will we.

YES, THAT'S CORRECT. We sold the other junk. That's why we're such big proponents of Vorsteiner. We made the mistake. Not sure why you want to make it, too.

I maintain that there are 5 companies in this market niche making quality carbon fiber components, including Vorsteiner. Here's a hint - Ericsson is another. You want to talk about high production costs?

Bottom line: If the parts are too expensive for you, then you are simply not the target audience. Vorsteiner parts are geared at the types of customers who spend more for HRE Monobloks, spend more for Brembos, and spent more to have an E92 M3 over a WRX STi. They are premium products for the most discerning customers in the world. Go into a watch dealership and tell them "I can have that Panerai/Patek Philippe made for 1/10 the cost" and see what they say.

Sorry for the rant but honestly this aggravates me to no end - and it's part of the reason we are weaning our customer base off the very few replica items we carry.

JL

[SV Concepts]

And as to the argument of self interest... I don't see how this is acting in self interest. I'm fairly confident the majority of you will think less of me for posting in here and defending Vorsteiner. Doesn't matter. We continue to tirelessly support them not because of fiscal gains, but because of what they've done for this industry, and what they continue to do for it.

You're all too nascent to remember 5 years ago when AC Schnitzer and Hamann's fiberglass wares were your only option to upgrade the car. There were no vented hoods, certainly no bootlids, none of that stuff. Then VIS came along with carbon fiber hoods... you guys remember VIS? Hoods that bulged and didn't close?

To this day, Vorsteiner is still one of the only companies (besides ericsson) making products that come anywhere near OEM quality standards for these cars.

Be thankful.
JL

Edit: And with that, I will duck out. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. We are working with Vorsteiner to offer more cost-effective solutions (for example, the new PUR front lip for the M3), but we can only do so much. We'll leave you guys to discuss in here. Hopefully you will consider some of my words

[!Xoible]

Originally Posted by tightie

Vorsteiner costs more because its guaranteed fitment. They probably made like 5 molds before they were happy with the final one. They have higher prices because you get what you paid for, a perfect part. I'm not trying to call anyone out here but everyone here is driving at least a 55k car. It's somewhat a high end sports car, you already know what you've gotten yourself into. You could of easily got a 335, 335s have many many knock off parts and the fitment sucks, go over to e90post and check it out.. You've gotta pay to play!

what are you on bro?! where have u been the last century! nowhere near perfect fitment whatsoever

[Omar@ActiveAutowerke]

Well said Jlevi.

Mods this thread should be closed and would have been closed a long time ago on many other forums. It is not going anywhere, you have a couple non sponsors feeding a frenzy that directly attacks one of your supporting vendors.
Someone should step up and do something.

My $.02

[tma1c]

Vorsteiner is over priced in my opinion. Interior trim should never cost that much. But in my experience, their fitment was excellent. At least for the E46 which I had the whole set up.

[J08M3]

By the logic in this thread you could assume the E9x M3 is overpriced. I don't hear you all complaining about BMW charging so much for the car. Why is anyone here choosing to pay $60k + for a fast car? You all easily could've gone out and bought a cheaper car i.e. Ford Mustang, Dodge Challenger or Charger.... and many others. Why did you choose to pay extra for a BMW? Is BMW ripping you off and making tons of money of each M3? Or is it possible they have much more R&D, better quality materials, a smaller market, closer attention to detail and quality control and so forth??

[tightie]

Originally Posted by ///Mantis

what are you on bro?! where have u been the last century! nowhere near perfect fitment whatsoever

Go check out pictures from my e46 m3, check out pictures of my e92 m3. They fit perfect like a glove. Its all about the installer.

[Bob@BPS]

Originally Posted by Active Autowerke

Well said Jlevi.

Mods this thread should be closed and would have been closed a long time ago on many other forums. It is not going anywhere, you have a couple non sponsors feeding a frenzy that directly attacks one of your supporting vendors.
Someone should step up and do something.

My $.02

Well said, Omar.

Jon, you have my respect. Your responses are thought out and well written.

One thing I am thankful for is the majority of posts on just about any forum are done by a very small percentage of the members. The more mature, affluent people that frequent forums tend to be lurkers that use the info posted for research and watch how vendors handle themselves. Collectively or individually, we are not going to change the minds of the guys that have already decided that manufacturers and dealers are making too much money and we don't deserve to make a living.

This thread should have been deleted back when it started. No thread should be allowed that harms anyone in any way...be it individual OR sponsor.

That's MY $.02, so now we have $.04 put in (who says there's a recession LOL). BTW, I'm also a CPA and I audited that total.

Bob

[consolidated]

Close the thread, why? I think it's a healthy though clearly uncomfortable debate. It's certainly is a nice change from what at times is an echo chamber of vendor pitches of the same products for the same price.

I understand and appreciate the need for commerce here, and love the next carbon item as much as anyone else but what your hearing is a general pushback from consumers with regard to pricing, you'll see more of it in 2009 as most people's disposable income diminishes. In tight times, enthusiasts don't stop buying, we just want more value.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPS

This thread should have been deleted back when it started. No thread should be allowed that harms anyone in any way...be it individual OR sponsor.

Holy fascist/big brother/anti freedom-of-speech/supress what I don't want to hear attitude batman. We live in a capitalistic society (well almost...at least in many areas). Competition it healthy and good companies and products will prosper. There is some serious insecurity and defensiveness going on here from the distributors and it makes you look "guilty" even if you are not.

Try not to usurp the job of the mods here and let the discussion and debate roll.

[eclipsisNA]

The gauntlet has been thrown: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192142

Being I've received nothing but negative responses from vendors (in the form of PMs) that I've supported over the years, I'm going ahead with my little project. We're altering far more than 10% of Vorsteiner's VRS Diffuser, so please spare me the "you're evil" spiel Bob, JLevi, AA, Vorsteiner, IND, etc. etc. I still respect you guys as members of our community, and in fact, you see those mods in my signature? They're the result of sending thousands of dollars to Vorsteiner, IND, and JLevi. As for you Bob, I've met you and your sons at two of the recent meets in Thousand Oaks and you were quite amiable in person, so no hard feelings to you.

Vorsteiner: I called you guys last week and spoke to Mike and asked "do you guys plan on releasing a diffuser without the left and right sides?" Mike's reply was this: "we don't plan on releasing it in the near future." Being you clearly told me that you weren't about to give the market what they wanted, I took the opportunity to start filling a niche in the marketplace. Now just a few days later and after the fact that I've announced this product, I see earlier today IND making the announcement of "Vorsteiner is ready to release their E92/93 M3 Type II rear diffuser!" That's quite a large change in tune from only a few days ago.

Let me be clear: I have no problem with competition. In fact I'm glad Vorsteiner is releasing a similar product. It'll allow consumers to pick the superior product. I'm saying all of this because I don't want to hear from any of the whining vendors about how unscrupulous I am. Vorsteiner had the chance to provide this product to consumers, and when they failed to step up to the plate, that's where I came in. If you guys are somehow able to release a superior product at a better price point, then more power to all of you and I wish everyone the best of luck.

[Griz]

Originally Posted by Active Autowerke

Well said Jlevi.

Mods this thread should be closed and would have been closed a long time ago on many other forums. It is not going anywhere, you have a couple non sponsors feeding a frenzy that directly attacks one of your supporting vendors.
Someone should step up and do something.

My $.02

Being a forum sponsor should allow you to promote your product. Do you see the inequity in allowing a paying member to post glowing comments while censoring any criticism of the product from non-paying members?

[eclipsisNA]

Originally Posted by Eclipse Motors

The gauntlet has been thrown: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192142

Being I've received nothing but negative responses from vendors (in the form of PMs) that I've supported over the years, I'm going ahead with my little project. We're altering far more than 10% of Vorsteiner's VRS Diffuser, so please spare me the "you're evil" spiel Bob, JLevi, AA, Vorsteiner, IND, etc. etc. I still respect you guys as members of our community, and in fact, you see those mods in my signature? They're the result of sending thousands of dollars to Vorsteiner, IND, and JLevi. As for you Bob, I've met you and your sons at two of the recent meets in Thousand Oaks and you were quite amiable in person, so no hard feelings to you.

Vorsteiner: I called you guys last week and spoke to Mike and asked "do you guys plan on releasing a diffuser without the left and right sides?" Mike's reply was this: "we don't plan on releasing it in the near future." Being you clearly told me that you weren't about to give the market what they wanted, I took the opportunity to start filling a niche in the marketplace. Now just a few days later and after the fact that I've announced this product, I see earlier today IND making the announcement of "Vorsteiner is ready to release their E92/93 M3 Type II rear diffuser!" That's quite a large change in tune from only a few days ago.

Let me be clear: I have no problem with competition. In fact I'm glad Vorsteiner is releasing a similar product. It'll allow consumers to pick the superior product. I'm saying all of this because I don't want to hear from any of the whining vendors about how unscrupulous I am. Vorsteiner had the chance to provide this product to consumers, and when they failed to step up to the plate, that's where I came in. If you guys are somehow able to release a superior product at a better price point, then more power to all of you and I wish everyone the best of luck.

Project canceled due to legal threats as of 12/10/08.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPS

This thread should have been deleted back when it started. No thread should be allowed that harms anyone in any way...be it individual OR sponsor.

I will have to disagree. Vendors will gladly sell here but they can't stand up to criticism? All vendors get bashed, it is part of the territory. I think the defining moment for the vendor is what their actions are in response.

Where there's competition, there's an opportunity for a vendor to step up and dominate. Are they not a premium manufacturer of composite goods who makes products with top notch fitment and quality? From past experience, 90% of replica goods have fitment issues. You end up spending the same amount of money to get it to look like the real thing.

I don't even understand why Vorsteiner even really cares about this thread. But the approach to this thread by some will linger in my decision on which product I will buy.

Time to go to bed.