Scary rod bearing thread s85

[MTrezzz]

From 2008 to 2013, did Bmw change the bearings

[B767capt]

I would like to add to this discussion. I have an 08 M5 with only 50K on it. I just pulled the pan to change the rod bearings as preventative maintenance. I enjoy working on it and it's easy to do. I'm replacing with oem, as the parts just arrived yesterday. I have only pulled the#10 so far and the top bearing was worn. I posted a picture of it over on the M5 forum. Over on that forum, a guy that sells S85 used for a living says what they have found is the big end of these connecting rods shrink with time and heat cycles which ends up squeezing the bearing tighter. If I install new ones they won't last anytime since the rods big end is smaller than when it was new. That the only real fix is to pull the motor and resize everything. First time I've heard of the connecting rod really being the culprit. Same part in the S65. Now I'm torn to either leave it or replace RB's. I'm leaning on replacing.

I stayed away from coated RB's due to the comments made on this thread. I don't track the car.

BTW what should the plasigage read?

[Longwong]

Forgive my ignorance but is a rod bearing supposed to have any wear or is it supposed to not have any signs of wear if the clearences are correct in a proper application? I mean is some level of wear ok and normal but these are all excessive is the feeling I get?

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Longwong

Forgive my ignorance but is a rod bearing supposed to have any wear or is it supposed to not have any signs of wear if the clearences are correct in a proper application? I mean is some level of wear ok and normal but these are all excessive is the feeling I get?

The lower shell looks very good. That is normal wear. The upper shell is lack of oil. The tightest spot for clearance is usually just off center just as the bearing shows. The clearance wont vary much for about 30-45 degrees on the shell then you will get the fall off. When there is a pin point cavitation mark like that it is because of starvation.
There were a few pictures posted of a different m5 that had the top shell all the way to the copper and the lower shells actually looked pretty good. If clearance is the issue both shells will look like crap. When only the combustion shell (the top) looks like crap it is a lubrication problem.

[VCMpower]

+1

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

The lower shell looks very good. That is normal wear. The upper shell is lack of oil. The tightest spot for clearance is usually just off center just as the bearing shows. The clearance wont vary much for about 30-45 degrees on the shell then you will get the fall off. When there is a pin point cavitation mark like that it is because of starvation.
There were a few pictures posted of a different m5 that had the top shell all the way to the copper and the lower shells actually looked pretty good. If clearance is the issue both shells will look like crap. When only the combustion shell (the top) looks like crap it is a lubrication problem.

[Longwong]

So what is the solution guys? Is the answer different oil or I wish some of you smart engineers could really help us simpletons with a solution. I am happy to run the mobil racing oil but I still don't understand why oil would effect the sensors unless your car burns oil. My car has never burned a drop in 54k miles so I don't think its an issue.

But any other problems with running mobil race 0w50 that may occur with our engines?

[DATM3]

Any opinion on 20W50 oil? Would it be better for a supercharged car?

[Longwong]

I don't think a higher 20 number is good for anything except more wear on cold starts. Think a 50 or 60 number is about as good as is out there.

The more I learn about tws however, it is clearly not a 60 weight for more than 50 miles lol and the bmw engineers knew this obviously so I am thinking like someone mentioned above, I am pretty sure they knew what they are doing.

I may argue that in the NA ones that failed, any chance people did not drive the car hard enough, often enough? I hate to say it but I live in a warm place and I drive my car hard everyday. My temps in summer are almost to the first dash to the right of middle (not quite) much of the time. In winter its always at the center number or almost there. I take it and keep it in the high revs all the time. Perhaps that was what bmw envisioned. Keeping the oil hot (as would happen in Europe or a track) and that means the oil is thin enough to protect the bearings but still thick enough to offer the protection needed for the engine. If people never get the engine hot enough than the small clearences may be too small for oil that is not getting hot on a regular basis?

Would also like to see what states these failures all happen in? Any chance the damage is from cold starts over time in cold climates in people who also never get their engine hot and drive it hard?

Supercharged applications are different as the stress in general is so much greater than the above variables may not apply as consistently

[flipmeraz]

Not sure if its been mentioned before but has anyone looked into getting the rod bearings treated by WPC?

[Longwong]

But if a car leaks no oil or burns no oil (which Mine has never done in 55k miles, how does any oil effect your cats? or sensors?

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by flipmeraz

Not sure if its been mentioned before but has anyone looked into getting the rod bearings treated by WPC?

I think we need to arrive at a solution, initially, that will not require opening up the engine. I have always been careful to not high rpm until the oil has warmed up. There is a reason the oil temp gauge is there in an /// car. I haven't seen one in Australia in a series production BMW. The oil temp gauge gives you an indication as to the progress of the oil warming up, and complementing the count down on the tacho when you start the car up initially.

I suspect that the cars that have had early bearing failures, at some point in time, have been revved to high rpm before the optimum temp, thus causing the starvation, and an eventual failure. I think once the protection coating is sheered and penetrated, the etching process sets in, and tt's too late to rescue. So I believe it's of paramount importance to get the car up to the optimum operating temperature before flooring.

There is nothing wrong with flooring ... but only when the temperature is right. This is my take from this entire thread.

May be using a different oil will bring that optimum point lot earlier but I don't think it's the solution. The 10w-60 is not there to service only the bearing. There are other components in the S65, and for the longevity of the engine I think we need this 10w-60.

Kawasaki, did you get a chance to check out the components in the 5w-30?

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Kawasaki, did you get a chance to check out the components in the 5w-30?

I did along with about 5 other oils. The 5-30 castrol is really of no use to us.
The German castrol 0w30 is almost a 40 wt. however it is not a sn oil. The new belgium castrol 0w40 is really good and is a sn. The mobil 1 0w40 is the best of the bunch really. It is the heaviest of the 40 wt oils I have tested. I checked the 5w50 castrol has and it is higher in zinc but it will shear quickly to a 40 wt.
it really is a lot to go through but thinnest to thick is as follows
Castrol 5w30
German castrol 0w30
Belgium 0w40. This oil is replacing the current 5w40 on shelves
Mobil 1 0w40
Rotella t6
Mobil 1 0w50
Castrol5w50

Multiple 10w40s can go here
Castrol tws
Liquid moly 10w60

I would definitely not run the liquid moly because it does not have the cold flow properties as the tws but is equal hot.
I will do my best to answer questions on other oil if someone has some.

[aussiem3]

[/QUOTE] ...I will do my best to answer questions on other oil if someone has some.[/QUOTE]
Thank you very much for the information Kawasaki. Much appreciated.

[Longwong]

how about the Pennzoil 5w40 euro that the 458 italia runs stock

[klammer]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I did along with about 5 other oils. The 5-30 castrol is really of no use to us.
The German castrol 0w30 is almost a 40 wt. however it is not a sn oil. The new belgium castrol 0w40 is really good and is a sn. The mobil 1 0w40 is the best of the bunch really. It is the heaviest of the 40 wt oils I have tested. I checked the 5w50 castrol has and it is higher in zinc but it will shear quickly to a 40 wt.
it really is a lot to go through but thinnest to thick is as follows
Castrol 5w30
German castrol 0w30
Belgium 0w40. This oil is replacing the current 5w40 on shelves
Mobil 1 0w40
Rotella t6
Mobil 1 0w50
Castrol5w50

Multiple 10w40s can go here
Castrol tws
Liquid moly 10w60

I would definitely not run the liquid moly because it does not have the cold flow properties as the tws but is equal hot.
I will do my best to answer questions on other oil if someone has some.

Some great info, thank you for sharing.

[FogCityM3]

Thx for all your feedback, any opinions on Redline 10w-60 or 15w-50? Know of one racing team that swears by it.

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I did along with about 5 other oils. The 5-30 castrol is really of no use to us.
The German castrol 0w30 is almost a 40 wt. however it is not a sn oil. The new belgium castrol 0w40 is really good and is a sn. The mobil 1 0w40 is the best of the bunch really. It is the heaviest of the 40 wt oils I have tested. I checked the 5w50 castrol has and it is higher in zinc but it will shear quickly to a 40 wt.
it really is a lot to go through but thinnest to thick is as follows
Castrol 5w30
German castrol 0w30
Belgium 0w40. This oil is replacing the current 5w40 on shelves
Mobil 1 0w40
Rotella t6
Mobil 1 0w50
Castrol5w50

Multiple 10w40s can go here
Castrol tws
Liquid moly 10w60

I would definitely not run the liquid moly because it does not have the cold flow properties as the tws but is equal hot.
I will do my best to answer questions on other oil if someone has some.

[Cidle]

...I will do my best to answer questions on other oil if someone has some.[/QUOTE]

Great info, I am running Redline 10w60 and was thinking of switching to Liqui Moly! What is your take on the Redline?

[flipmeraz]

Originally Posted by Longwong

how about the Pennzoil 5w40 euro that the 458 italia runs stock

Yes someone please let me know if this oil would be a good substitute. I can get this at work!

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I did along with about 5 other oils. The 5-30 castrol is really of no use to us.
The German castrol 0w30 is almost a 40 wt. however it is not a sn oil. The new belgium castrol 0w40 is really good and is a sn. The mobil 1 0w40 is the best of the bunch really. It is the heaviest of the 40 wt oils I have tested. I checked the 5w50 castrol has and it is higher in zinc but it will shear quickly to a 40 wt.
it really is a lot to go through but thinnest to thick is as follows
Castrol 5w30
German castrol 0w30
Belgium 0w40. This oil is replacing the current 5w40 on shelves
Mobil 1 0w40
Rotella t6
Mobil 1 0w50
Castrol5w50

Multiple 10w40s can go here
Castrol tws
Liquid moly 10w60

I would definitely not run the liquid moly because it does not have the cold flow properties as the tws but is equal hot.
I will do my best to answer questions on other oil if someone has some.

Thanks for this great info....... Kind of confirms my thoughts on alternative oils for the S65. The three I was interested in using were GC 0W30, T6 5W40, or, M1 0W40. I guess I will go with the M1....... I am a big fan of 0 weight oils since they ensure the quickest possible lubrication after start up!

I will be adding clearance to my engine in the near future, along with some other bits Even after I have the engine reassembled I will be using a lighter oil anyway...... The 10W60 just don't make sense in a street driven car.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Longwong

how about the Pennzoil 5w40 euro that the 458 italia runs stock

One of our main sponsors is Quaker State which is owned by Shell, they are sending me some 5-40 euro to try out. I will get back to you on that one.
From what I have gathered from some other tests is that the mobil is better hot and thicker with higher viscosity index but is still thinner cold. Really better all around. Only question is do we have enough oil pressure to run the 0-40. But, I know a couple guys already running it so I am going to put a gauge in the car. I have asked on a couple occasions for a pressure graph to be posted but no one wants to do it. So I am working on it.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by cidle323

...I will do my best to answer questions on other oil if someone has some.

Great info, I am running Redline 10w60 and was thinking of switching to Liqui Moly! What is your take on the Redline?[/QUOTE]

The redline is a really good oil but if going off the premise that the oil is too thick for us non track users then I would not run it.
The redline is thicker cold and hot than the tws oil.

[W///]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Thanks for this great info....... Kind of confirms my thoughts on alternative oils for the S65. The three I was interested in using were GC 0W30, T6 5W40, or, M1 0W40. I guess I will go with the M1....... I am a big fan of 0 weight oils since they ensure the quickest possible lubrication after start up!

I will be adding clearance to my engine in the near future, along with some other bits Even after I have the engine reassembled I will be using a lighter oil anyway...... The 10W60 just don't make sense in a street driven car.

I'll be looking at switching to M1 as well after my next Blackstone report. I'd really like to hear about the oil pressure, then I'll be really convinced.