HPDE experiments, results and observations

[Datka]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I have Thundermoose at 00:56.85

Are you sure about that lap time?
This is Porsche gt3/c7 z06 territory.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by Datka

Are you sure about that lap time?
This is Porsche gt3/c7 z06 territory.

I am pretty sure. Official NASA TT3 track record.

330 hp, 3000 lb E46 M3. Unfortunately, no video of this session, but do have some 57.8's.

Car # Racer Race Class Track Best Lap Date
67 Denis Clavette TT3 Lime Rock Park 0:56.850 Sat, Jul 14, 2018

http://laprecords-160919.appspot.com

[Datka]

Oh I see, e46 race car. On what tires?

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by Datka

Oh I see, e46 race car. On what tires?

3rd HC A7's. 245/40/18 square setup

Here's a write-up I did of that event. https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1515852

Pic of car from Mid Ohio, which is basically the same trim car has been in since 2016.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

2nd HC A7's

Pic of car from Mid Ohio

Because R7 just won't do :-)

[Datka]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Because R7 just won't do :-)

A7s are too expensive for HPDE, wont even last for 2 30 min sessions.
Would love to see what I could do on A7s mounted to my m3 at LRP or WGI.
I think I will try to do it next season just out of curiosity.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by Datka

A7s are too expensive for HPDE, wont even last for 2 30 min sessions.
Would love to see what I could do on A7s mounted to my m3 at LRP or WGI.
I think I will try to do it next season just out of curiosity.

That's a fallacy. We ran A7's multiple full sessions at LRP and WGI that week. They will last if driven properly. R7's are nearly as good though. I have plenty of 2:02's in R7's at WGI.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

That's a fallacy. We ran A7's multiple full sessions at LRP and WGI that week. They will last if driven properly. R7's are nearly as good though. I have plenty of 2:02's in R7's at WGI.

I suspect these compounds are highly sensitive to weight and pace. Hence the variable opinions.

They are undisputable fast and expensive.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Naked and afraid
.

I love the look of polished Brembo calipers.

[rhyary]

So Core4 modified my Future Classic F80 hubs and every thing is back together. Just the yellow nuts should make me 2sec faster!
.

[rhyary]

I know, this is unconventional, but $113 per 140 tread tires? I'll take it.
Ordered 4
.

[rhyary]

If you want to do the front hubs yourself, you will need this "Grey Pneumatic 29106M 1/2" Drive x 10mm Hex Driver 6" Length Socket " or similar to avoid clearance issues. The shaft itself need to be at least 3" or 4".
.
The two short ones with extension still interfere.
.

[rhyary]

If you desire 14mm pressed in studs on F80 hub from Core4. You will need these. A 6" and 3" 10mm hex (Allen) for the socket bolts.

The hub bolts are M12 hex socket 60mm. The F80 hub is 1.25 pitch (the E92 is M12 hex bolt, not socket, and 1.5 pitch.

The socket hex are 12.9 bolts.

The washer is M12 narrow (20mm OD)

Here are pictures for DIY people:

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by rhyary

If you desire 14mm pressed in studs on F80 hub from Core4. You will need these. A 6" and 3" 10mm hex (Allen) for the socket bolts.

The hub bolts are M12 hex socket 60mm. The F80 hub is 1.25 pitch (the E92 is M12 hex bolt, not socket, and 1.5 pitch.

The socket hex are 12.9 bolts.

The washer is M12 narrow (20mm OD)

Here are pictures for DIY people:

Did you go the F80 hub route for the weight reduction or because you'd already purchased from FC? Can't Core4 drill the E92 *** hubs to accommodate M14 studs?

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Did you go the F80 hub route for the weight reduction or because you'd already purchased from FC? Can't Core4 drill the E92 *** hubs to accommodate M14 studs?

I had FC F80 already and Core4 was kind enough to modified them for pressed in 14mm.

the weight reduction was a bonus, but not the primary reason.

My thought process evolved to get here. I do many track days and constantly mounting wheels at home (road set) and on the track (left to right). So I wanted studs.

12mm screw in studs are reported to be less reliable than lugs. I drive to the track and Inhave to drive home. I don't want to bring all
my tools with me to extract broke studs.

FC had nice solution moving up to 14mm. So ACM installed that last year. I worked up the courage to remove the hubs myself and Core4 was ready for a quick turn around before my next trackday.

The pressed in 14mm studs are mainly for the convenient of yearly replacement. I don't think they are going to break.

While I was taking the hub bolts off and remounting them, I ran in to clearance issues with my 3" 10mm hex. So I purchased the 6" and this and the 3" is what is needed for a fast and easy replacement.

I also ordered the hex 60mm and washers and will ne replacing them in the near future.

I worked with Core4 to report the DIY needs. Core4 will either supply the complete kit or you can see here all that is needed:

To take apart you need to remove caliper, disk (2 x 5mm retainer. These might need to be drilled out)

To put together you want/need new:
1. 4 x M12 60mm socket hex
2. 2 x 5mm retainer screw
3. 4 x M12 12.9 20mm washers
4. 3" 1/2 10mm Hex wrench
5. 6" 1/2 10mm Hex wrench
6. 1/2 torque wrench set to 83Lbs or 110nm

I think that's about it. I had to buy 25 bolts and 100 washers to have the above.

Much easier to get everything from Core4 as a kit.

[DRLane]

Thanks rhyary

I'm also on Core4 press-ins, but M12 as they weren't yet doing the M14 solution. They're awesome and I know several WRL teams that use them for endurance racing without issue.

Strongly recommend. The f8x weight reduction is even cooler. Plus don't the FC hubs have a rust preventative coating?

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Thanks rhyary

I'm also on Core4 press-ins, but M12 as they weren't yet doing the M14 solution. They're awesome and I know several WRL teams that use them for endurance racing without issue.

Strongly recommend. The f8x weight reduction is even cooler. Plus don't the FC hubs have a rust preventative coating?

The F80 hubs might have some rust preventing coating but it is still surface rust at spots.

Would love getting rid of the rust, somehow. Open for suggestions

[dparm]

Try hitting it with Iron-X (which is a great wheel cleaner BTW) and a soft brush.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by rhyary

The F80 hubs might have some rust preventing coating but it is still surface rust at spots.

Would love getting rid of the rust, somehow. Open for suggestions

Been using this on the hubs with some success when I swap wheels or pads.

[rhyary]

Three sets strategy.
So I went forward with buying a third set.
My thinking is one set for the road and two for the track.

1. street driving (in town)
2. Track (max/ultra performance)
3. Track (Slicks)

Since my home track is very abrasive (NYST) I can't really go with Cup2 or slicks every time and demolish 2 fronts in 7x20min session. There has to be away to have fun in a less expensive way.

Since LRP is not abrasive at all, I can go there with slicks multiple times. That makes an A7 survive multiple track days and make A7/R7 affordable.

For street I am thinking about MICHELIN PILOT SPORT A/S 3+. I have them on my work car and they were great year round, including summer.

But mainly I am thinking that the A/S 3+ will be terrific in the rain. So, if I have a true rain day on the track, I think it would be much better than any of the max/ultra tires I have in inventory.

Another factor to think about is that both LRP and NYST are 70min from my house. So it is not unusual for me to register for 3 track days spanning Fri-Sat-Sun-Mon. That means I don't have tire services in between.

In short, three set of wheels would allow me to cost effectively do multiple trackdays including rain days.

Sample mounting would be:
1. Street-Rain A/S 3+ 275/35/19 275/30/19
2. Track learning - Any 200 Tread or less 295/30/19 265/35/19 (275/30/19 FFI500)
3. Track (LRP or NYST going for PB) slick 295/30/19 265/35/19.

A note about the FFI500. It is the only tire that survived 2 track days at NYST. True the pace was 1:40, so perhaps it survived be because it was the first 2 trackdays of the season and I ws not going fast enough. But I also thing they are harder tire than other tires I tried. So it is very possible that I will need to factor into the equation the rubber compound going to NYST. While I love going 1:35-1:37, I also like driving full trackdays. I hate skipping the last session. And while I always tell my self to skip the first session (many time under yellow to let everyone "warm up") I find myself driving the first session and by the 4th lap on 1:38 pace.

If you have/had three wheel sets, what would you do?

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Three sets strategy.
So I went forward with buying a third set.
My thinking is one set for the road and two for the track.

1. street driving (in town)
2. Track (max/ultra performance)
3. Track (Slicks)

Since my home track is very abrasive (NYST) I can't really go with Cup2 or slicks every time and demolish 2 fronts in 7x20min session. There has to be away to have fun in a less expensive way.

Since LRP is not abrasive at all, I can go there with slicks multiple times. That makes an A7 survive multiple track days and make A7/R7 affordable.

For street I am thinking about MICHELIN PILOT SPORT A/S 3+. I have them on my work car and they were great year round, including summer.

But mainly I am thinking that the A/S 3+ will be terrific in the rain. So, if I have a true rain day on the track, I think it would be much better than any of the max/ultra tires I have in inventory.

Another factor to think about is that both LRP and NYST are 70min from my house. So it is not unusual for me to register for 3 track days spanning Fri-Sat-Sun-Mon. That means I don't have tire services in between.

In short, three set of wheels would allow me to cost effectively do multiple trackdays including rain days.

Sample mounting would be:
1. Street-Rain A/S 3+ 275/35/19 275/30/19
2. Track learning - Any 200 Tread or less 295/30/19 265/35/19 (275/30/19 FFI500)
3. Track (LRP or NYST going for PB) slick 295/30/19 265/35/19.

A note about the FFI500. It is the only tire that survived 2 track days at NYST. True the pace was 1:40, so perhaps it survived be because it was the first 2 trackdays of the season and I ws not going fast enough. But I also thing they are harder tire than other tires I tried. So it is very possible that I will need to factor into the equation the rubber compound going to NYST. While I love going 1:35-1:37, I also like driving full trackdays. I hate skipping the last session. And while I always tell my self to skip the first session (many time under yellow to let everyone "warm up") I find myself driving the first session and by the 4th lap on 1:38 pace.

If you have/had three wheel sets, what would you do?

I'd do what you are doing. I trailer my car and use 5 sets. Since I compete in NASA Time Trials, I end up needing multiple sets as some sets are still good for DE days but not for getting a spot on the podium.

[Ximian]

I'm likely switching to the A/S 3+ next spring. Two brutal winters on my PS4S (stored on the car while parked on styrofoam blocks in a slightly warm garage no less) and they're noticeably firmer now. The great thing about the A/S 3+ is that it has such a wide functional range. You can drive it on the hot days and on the freezing days, even with a bit of snow. On a wet day, I think they would do better than the PS4S or its friends.

Anecdotal evidence on my last wet track day, but a newer 528 on new A/S 3 tires wiped the floor with all of us on PS4S as they had the highest cornering speed on a fast bend. The PS4S grooves are no match for the deeper tread on the all season tire in actual rain. Disclaimer: blah blah blah depends on the driver blah blah blah