The unacceptable danger of modern track-day coaching - Road & Track

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

What I was told and what I've learned with the conti scrubs is that your tires will last WAY longer if you choose which turns to attack aggressively and which ones where you aren't using every bit of grip. If I just go balls out they will heat cycle and die pretty quickly.

Yeah I'm finding that also. Hard not to be in attack mode though not as fun. Went thru those c51 in 2.5 days.

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I don't make too much of an adjustment on conti scrubs, R6s and NT01s vs RS3s, NT05s and PSS. The biggest difference is braking and how much throttle you can add early in the corner. Do you think novices understand how their tires work and what condition they are in? Most have no clue until one gets corded and the car gets squirrely. Lots of intermediate and advanced students have no clue.

I think its interesting that around the upper mid west...I see about 50% of the novices on R-Comps. Lots of BMW drivers too!

I don't even know what the thought process is to getting into Rcomps so quickly. I mean, if you are a novice, I consider myself decent at car control (drifts!), been tracking about 3 years, and I'm still pretty novice...or maybe I'm setting the "advanced" level just way too high, or being too humble? I just look at this like on a 10-20 year curve and no way is someone a few years in advanced at all.

If you are on Rcomps you better be competing

That definitely is not happening at the novice level, and 75% of the advanced level.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by M4isKing

I don't even know what the thought process is to getting into Rcomps so quickly. I mean, if you are a novice, I consider myself decent at car control (drifts!), been tracking about 3 years, and I'm still pretty novice...or maybe I'm setting the "advanced" level just way too high, or being too humble? I just look at this like on a 10-20 year curve and no way is someone a few years in advanced at all.

If you are on Rcomps you better be competing

That definitely is not happening at the novice level, and 75% of the advanced level.

Haven't you gotten any hpde trophies yet?

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Yeah I'm finding that also. Hard not to be in attack mode though not as fun. Went thru those c51 in 2.5 days.

Totally agree. It's not fun to drive conservatively.

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by M4isKing

I don't even know what the thought process is to getting into Rcomps so quickly. I mean, if you are a novice, I consider myself decent at car control (drifts!), been tracking about 3 years, and I'm still pretty novice...or maybe I'm setting the "advanced" level just way too high, or being too humble? I just look at this like on a 10-20 year curve and no way is someone a few years in advanced at all.

If you are on Rcomps you better be competing

That definitely is not happening at the novice level, and 75% of the advanced level.

R comps are just so much more fun. The grip is addicting.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by M4isKing

I don't even know what the thought process is to getting into Rcomps so quickly. I mean, if you are a novice, I consider myself decent at car control (drifts!), been tracking about 3 years, and I'm still pretty novice...or maybe I'm setting the "advanced" level just way too high, or being too humble? I just look at this like on a 10-20 year curve and no way is someone a few years in advanced at all.

If you are on Rcomps you better be competing

That definitely is not happening at the novice level, and 75% of the advanced level.

I think R-Comps is right along the thought process of people who add mods to drop lap times. Competitive mindset...beat everyone by spending more money.

Which is what would scare me in seeing a novice with r-comps.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I think R-Comps is right along the thought process of people who add mods to drop lap times. Competitive mindset...beat everyone by spending more money.

Which is what would scare me in seeing a novice with r-comps.

Once your close to the limit of lap times with a certain set up don't you reduce weight, add tire, add power or something to go faster? I have done things stepwise getting what I can at a lower level then upgrading. In a way it's buying lap times yes but not before I'm at the point I need more.

[PrimeBMW]

A friend of mine was coaching a beginner with a Miata today. RA1s.......the student decided not to brake for corner two........they made contact with the wall. The coach was sore but continued with his day. I just got a Facebook message the he is at the emergency room to get checked out. Apparently his condition got worse.

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I think R-Comps is right along the thought process of people who add mods to drop lap times. Competitive mindset...beat everyone by spending more money.

Which is what would scare me in seeing a novice with r-comps.

i suppose.

I'm working on my driver mod.

i do have suspension brake pads and rs3. i know im not close to rcomps yet.

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

A friend of mine was coaching a beginner with a Miata today. RA1s.......the student decided not to brake for corner two........they made contact with the wall. The coach was sore but continued with his day. I just got a Facebook message the he is at the emergency room to get checked out. Apparently his condition got worse.

Ouch. Hope he's ok.

[Triple M]

I think it depends on what everyone expects to gain out of our sport. Heck, it's the first thing they ask you on your first day at Skip Barber. Quite interesting to hear the answers and the stutters. I believe it's the question everyone needs to asked themselves, especially as you start to acquire significant amount of seat under the proper training. It will also hopefully allow your instructor to judge your mindset, well in advance before one puts himself and the instructor on a tree/wall etc.
Everyone has an opinion on what mods are necessary and what arent, but we must admit BBK, Coilovers, Fluids etc are pretty common. How many intermediate/ advance drivers are running stock pads, fluid, suspension, all season tires etc. to each it's own. Testing diffent tires, grip, diff slip angles with diff compounds etc is part of the learning curve, but shouldnt be for the purpose of "going faster". If you have a good instructor, and you ACTUALLY listen, driving within your capabilities, there's less chance you hurt yourself or an instructor, but at the end of the day it's dangerous sport, accidents happen, but we don't have to get hurt when there are no prizes at end of day. It's pretty reassuring that just about all the instructor on here have a pretty good safety record and I tip my hats off to them. It ain't easy putting your life on someone else's hand without an accessory brake pedal.

[Triple M]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

A friend of mine was coaching a beginner with a Miata today. RA1s.......the student decided not to brake for corner two........they made contact with the wall. The coach was sore but continued with his day. I just got a Facebook message the he is at the emergency room to get checked out. Apparently his condition got worse.

We wish him speedy recovery

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Once your close to the limit of lap times with a certain set up don't you reduce weight, add tire, add power or something to go faster? I have done things stepwise getting what I can at a lower level then upgrading. In a way it's buying lap times yes but not before I'm at the point I need more.

That's not how this sport works.

I've been doing this for a while and consider myself proficient enough to pass along some of my knowledge. I thought, for a long time, that I'm pretty close to the limit of what my "hardware" can do.

Until I took a ride with a semi-pro. In my car. A car I've been tracking with for the last 8+ years. Within 3 laps he was matching and exceeding my lap time without breaking a sweat. And I know he wasn't giving it his all.

As he pulled into the pit he mentioned that there's probably a couple seconds to be had with some better shocks, and I believe him. And I look at HLT, and for me those couple of seconds could have just come from being a better driver.

We had a long conversation in the pits, as I pick his brain about picking up more speed, he basically said that he's on a race track twice a month driving competitively, that if I'm not doing THAT, I'm never going to be as fast and frankly, if I am then I should be doing THAT.

The truth is, there will ALWAYS be someone who's faster than you in your car, even if you think you've extracted every bit of performance out of it. By the way, that same semi-pro? I beat him by 2 seconds on our local indoor karting track (karting takes a slightly different skill set, plus I used to go to that track once a week).

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

A friend of mine was coaching a beginner with a Miata today. RA1s.......the student decided not to brake for corner two........they made contact with the wall. The coach was sore but continued with his day. I just got a Facebook message the he is at the emergency room to get checked out. Apparently his condition got worse.

hope he is ok and has a speedy recovery.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by The HACK

That's not how this sport works.

I've been doing this for a while and consider myself proficient enough to pass along some of my knowledge. I thought, for a long time, that I'm pretty close to the limit of what my "hardware" can do.

Until I took a ride with a semi-pro. In my car. A car I've been tracking with for the last 8+ years. Within 3 laps he was matching and exceeding my lap time without breaking a sweat. And I know he wasn't giving it his all.

As he pulled into the pit he mentioned that there's probably a couple seconds to be had with some better shocks, and I believe him. And I look at HLT, and for me those couple of seconds could have just come from being a better driver.

We had a long conversation in the pits, as I pick his brain about picking up more speed, he basically said that he's on a race track twice a month driving competitively, that if I'm not doing THAT, I'm never going to be as fast and frankly, if I am then I should be doing THAT.

The truth is, there will ALWAYS be someone who's faster than you in your car, even if you think you've extracted every bit of performance out of it. By the way, that same semi-pro? I beat him by 2 seconds on our local indoor karting track (karting takes a slightly different skill set, plus I used to go to that track once a week).

agreed but im trying to be faster than myself not faster than someone else. i want to be better and more proficient than my former self. your right there is someone always faster and i dont care one bit about that.

[PrimeBMW]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

A friend of mine was coaching a beginner with a Miata today. RA1s.......the student decided not to brake for corner two........they made contact with the wall. The coach was sore but continued with his day. I just got a Facebook message the he is at the emergency room to get checked out. Apparently his condition got worse.

Quick update: He had a severe neck sprain and some minor tearing of muscles in one shoulder. The driver had a harness but my friend/instructor had a conventional safety belt.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by M4isKing

I don't even know what the thought process is to getting into Rcomps so quickly. I mean, if you are a novice, I consider myself decent at car control (drifts!), been tracking about 3 years, and I'm still pretty novice...or maybe I'm setting the "advanced" level just way too high, or being too humble? I just look at this like on a 10-20 year curve and no way is someone a few years in advanced at all.

If you are on Rcomps you better be competing

That definitely is not happening at the novice level, and 75% of the advanced level.

I don't think "how many years" of track experience automatically equates to level of driver skill. Some guys excel at a much faster pace than others because of a variety of reasons.

But I totally agree on beginners running R Comps. The craziest thing is when I see guys running r comps and still running traction control. It's like putting training wheels on a mountain bike. I can understand the addiction to mod to be faster though. Everyone else is doing it and lap times become the benchmark.

I recently went back to street tires at the track and my street tire times are getting awfully close to my R comp times. That's far more rewarding to me (and better for my wallet).

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

Quick update: He had a severe neck sprain and some minor tearing of muscles in one shoulder. The driver had a harness but my friend/instructor had a conventional safety belt.

I hope treatment and physical therapy go well.

I just don't understand some folks...whenever I have a passenger, I dial it down a notch - I would feel deep regret and responsibility if I crashed and injured someone.

I had two passengers this past weekend:
-One experienced driver who wanted a ride along (dialed it back a little).
-One first time track goer (invited him to try an event), and I dialed it back a lot more so he doesn't get carried away with speed on his first track day.

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

I don't think "how many years" of track experience automatically equates to level of driver skill. Some guys excel at a much faster pace than others because of a variety of reasons.

But I totally agree on beginners running R Comps. The craziest thing is when I see guys running r comps and still running traction control. It's like putting training wheels on a mountain bike. I can understand the addiction to mod to be faster though. Everyone else is doing it and lap times become the benchmark.

I recently went back to street tires at the track and my street tire times are getting awfully close to my R comp times. That's far more rewarding to me (and better for my wallet).

yep - totally agree.

Rcomps + traction control = training wheels on a mountain bike

I should have said number of years PLUS advanced skills.

Besides, I don't really care for timing (sometimes I time just as a guage of where I am). Who doesn't like it when the car starts sliding around?

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by M4isKing

yep - totally agree.

Rcomps + traction control = training wheels on a mountain bike

I should have said number of years PLUS advanced skills.

Besides, I don't really care for timing (sometimes I time just as a guage of where I am). Who doesn't like it when the car starts sliding around?

I love when my car is sliding. But track marshals at HPDE's do not. I've gotten the "You are not a pro driver so stop trying to drift..." talk from them more than once.

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

I love when my car is sliding. But track marshals at HPDE's do not. I've gotten the "You are not a pro driver so stop trying to drift..." talk from them more than once.

thats funny this saturday i was walking up to registration for a download meeting when i overheard chatter on the walkie talkie "black no. 86, drifting, blah balh blah". i laugh and go im black 86. sorry haha

but speed ventures said its all good as long as its controlled and without many cars around since ppl tend to freak out lol.

I said sorry and said that some were on accident and this is how you get better right?

apparently autoclub speedway Marshall's dont like it. the next download meeting they just asked if i was specifically black flagged and glad i wasnt haha.

[Estoril Blue]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

Quick update: He had a severe neck sprain and some minor tearing of muscles in one shoulder. The driver had a harness but my friend/instructor had a conventional safety belt.

I will not instruct in a car that has one level of safety for the driver - and a lesser level of safety for the passenger. Most reputable HPDE organizations will not permit such a car through Tech inspection.