Track forum general chit chat.

[okusa]

Sorry, didn’t mean to come across as argumentative. I don’t see a disconnect really. Someone that is overslowing either has to carry more speed or brake later. What other options are there? Carrying more speed and braking earlier won’t help the situation, so to me the answer is learn to trail brake.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by leftfootbr8king

I guess if you define trail braking as simply “trailing off the brakes” in a straight line then sure, that’s not the solution.

How I was taught, understand and practice trailbraking is more of a comprehensive approach to cornering.


In his situation, if I were over slowing corners and having to get on the throttle too early thus creating a situation where I didn’t have enough weight over front tires to rotate the car I’d first move my braking zone a little deeper, to make sure I didn’t over slow. In an early apex corner that might be all that is needed. In a corner with a later apex I would include trailing off the brakes to mid corner to rotate the back end a bit while keeping weight over the front tires. Done correctly when it’s time to apply some throttle the wheel won’t be pinched.

By definition trail braking isn’t trailing off in a straight line, I assumed you’d know that. Sorry I was not explicit.

Also braking deeper isn’t the solution as it will result in overslowing for 99% of amateurs. Your boy Bentley explicitly states this in some of his latest corner convos.

The goal is to carry more speed through the corner. A blanket “me, trail brake” grunt grunt. Is nonsensical.

[derbo]

Originally Posted by Cmassey3

Based on this fender liner diagram, there's two potential spots it could be in the liner, either section 10 or section 16.

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=51_5862

I haven't poked around yet to find out.

10 doesn't exist in M fenders but exists in non-M ones.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by okusa

Sorry, didn’t mean to come across as argumentative. I don’t see a disconnect really. Someone that is overslowing either has to carry more speed or brake later. What other options are there? Carrying more speed and braking earlier won’t help the situation, so to me the answer is learn to trail brake.

You can brake earlier, just brake less.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by DRLane

By definition trail braking isn’t trailing off in a straight line, I assumed you’d know that. Sorry I was not explicit.

Also braking deeper isn’t the solution as it will result in overslowing for 99% of amateurs. Your boy Bentley explicitly states this in some of his latest corner convos.

The goal is to carry more speed through the corner. A blanket “me, trail brake” grunt grunt. Is nonsensical.

Theory...one thing working against newer drivers is a current 200 treadwear tire outperforms most r-comps from 10 years ago. To the contrary, it makes drivers slower.

Observation...When I started, local track, MSR Houston - 2008-ish most intermediate drivers were around 1:50-1:52, I was running 1:47s in advanced and was in the upper 3rd. Fast forward to today same DE org, I can't find an advanced DE driver that is running below 1:50.

Maybe I am getting old but the better the tires, nannies and overall car gets, the slower the driver seems to be.

[leftfootbr8king]

I know the definition of trail braking and explained it in some detail because it seemed like you didn’t. Glad we’re on the same page now.

I had a coach teach me trail braking at VIR a few years ago. We discussed how to apply the theory to each corner that it would be useful in. It’s a basic theory with nuance to each specific corner. One session in and I was starting to feel it work for me. Over the course of a few days I gradually shaved off a decent amount of time because of it.

Grunt grunt

“Don’t work to achieve a driving style that will ultimately see you achieve the fastest lap times because you’re an amateur and you most likely suck” seems to be the pessimistic view a few of you prefer.

Since we’re not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt here: Telling someone to keep the same braking zone “but just be lighter on the brakes” is also a huge generalization, and could lead to understeering their way right off track.

I’m not saying less brake isn’t an effective approach, but it’s not the only approach.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Theory...one thing working against newer drivers is a current 200 treadwear tire outperforms most r-comps from 10 years ago. To the contrary, it makes drivers slower.

Observation...When I started, local track, MSR Houston - 2008-ish most intermediate drivers were around 1:50-1:52, I was running 1:47s in advanced and was in the upper 3rd. Fast forward to today same DE org, I can't find an advanced DE driver that is running below 1:50.

Maybe I am getting old but the better the tires, nannies and overall car gets, the slower the driver seems to be.

I think you’re right. The carve or setting the edge is lost in lieu of point and shoot.

Good visual for those that ski or watch ski racers. It’s a carve (albeit with tricky weight placement) but it’s not a hockey stop to rotate and repoint the fall line. It’s the same concept in the car.

Someone already mentioned, find a safe corner and instead of going faster and deeper, come in slower but brake less. And see if you can carry more min speed. See if you can carve the car. Find its edge, then you can add speed with a dash of trailing off later and see if you can add more edge by shifting weight.

Again each corner is different, but the goal is go through the corner as fast as possible in as short a distance as possible. Not simply, trail brake…

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by DRLane

You can brake earlier, just brake less.

i started doing this into turn 1 at BW and ive shaved a full second LOL

[Bartledoo]

I’m with Ximian on how to teach a *novice student braking and entry technique when they are previously overslowing and getting back to throttle on corner entry. Telling them to brake later is generally not productive with a novice/intermediate. This just makes the braking and entry phase even more frantic for them, when they are already pretty overloaded as is. Having them use the original brake initiation point but with less pressure is much more effective in leaving them with the bandwidth to feel the nuances of weight transfer while releasing the brake and turning in, and getting them to learn how to settle the car into a turn smoothly with higher speed.

And as others have already said, brake timing, pressure, and release vary based on corner characteristics…I’ve always wondered why most people at the track generally talk about “rotation” but don’t understand the when and why.

[gmx]

And as expected, we went off into a range of theories.

From reading his description, he trails despite how good/honed the technique is. But overslows then leads into throttle correction which as I said, kills the rotation. Throttle corrects and likely sits in maintenance throttle period going nowhere. Car should be decelerating or accelerating, way better rephrasing of "you should be on throttle/brake at any one time" myth. Maintenance throttle is definitely bad, load transfer is messed up and the car isn't effectively going anyhere. Forget about your min speed, you've lost tenths already by the next corner.

Min speed, and just about all the above is really flaff. The best advice is thinking traction circle. Do any coaches truly sit down and teach how to read and interpret data when cars fitted with aim/motec loggers? As I indicated, I'm increasingly of the opinion that a good coach is also a better psychologist.

Edit: someone mentioned colin braun. So I went and dug this up to have a listen on 2x:

Within the last damn minute the host is talking about getting to WOT faster rather than getting on the throttle faster. Bam, simply communicated now go execute. Another reason you will see that a substantially faster driver usually has a lower throttle % for a given lap.

[bleedat]

Has anyone gotten their stock M3 steering wheel modified to be thinner? Seeing if there are alternatives to KMP since I still go through yearly state inspections.

[Gossypiboma]

Originally Posted by bleedat

Has anyone gotten their stock M3 steering wheel modified to be thinner? Seeing if there are alternatives to KMP since I still go through yearly state inspections.

Never heard of doing that, but I'm curious as to why you want a thinner wheel?

[derbo]

Originally Posted by bleedat

Has anyone gotten their stock M3 steering wheel modified to be thinner? Seeing if there are alternatives to KMP since I still go through yearly state inspections.

The non-M sport wheels are thinner in diameter. The center controls are interchangeable. The unfortunate part is this only works for 6MT since DCT paddles are different than the auto paddles.


For example the BMW Performance yellow striped wheel.
32-30-2-157-307

Originally Posted by Gossypiboma

Never heard of doing that, but I'm curious as to why you want a thinner wheel?

I think its overly thick too tbh. The E46 one was great.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by gmx

And as expected, we went off into a range of theories.

From reading his description, he trails despite how good/honed the technique is. But overslows then leads into throttle correction which as I said, kills the rotation. Throttle corrects and likely sits in maintenance throttle period going nowhere. Car should be decelerating or accelerating, way better rephrasing of "you should be on throttle/brake at any one time" myth. Maintenance throttle is definitely bad, load transfer is messed up and the car isn't effectively going anyhere. Forget about your min speed, you've lost tenths already by the next corner.

Min speed, and just about all the above is really flaff. The best advice is thinking traction circle. Do any coaches truly sit down and teach how to read and interpret data when cars fitted with aim/motec loggers? As I indicated, I'm increasingly of the opinion that a good coach is also a better psychologist.

Edit: someone mentioned colin braun. So I went and dug this up to have a listen on 2x:

Within the last damn minute the host is talking about getting to WOT faster rather than getting on the throttle faster. Bam, simply communicated now go execute. Another reason you will see that a substantially faster driver usually has a lower throttle % for a given lap.

100% agree with you, but are we talking about coaching novices or more advanced drivers? There are levels to coaching for different levels of student. Honestly, there are many supposed “advanced” drivers which do not understand and/or are not ready for advanced technique, which to me says they are not advanced. That is hpde “advanced”, though, in a lot of cases lol

[Tommysalami]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

100% agree with you, but are we talking about coaching novices or more advanced drivers? There are levels to coaching for different levels of student. Honestly, there are many supposed “advanced” drivers which do not understand and/or are not ready for advanced technique, which to me says they are not advanced. That is hpde “advanced”, though, in a lot of cases lol

What do you consider "advanced" technique? The concept of advanced driving technique was always weird to me since even the pros are just doing the same basic fundamentals, just better than us.

[okusa]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

100% agree with you, but are we talking about coaching novices or more advanced drivers? There are levels to coaching for different levels of student. Honestly, there are many supposed “advanced” drivers which do not understand and/or are not ready for advanced technique, which to me says they are not advanced. That is hpde “advanced”, though, in a lot of cases lol

Also in agreement and also feel like some responses have conveniently changed the facts to justify the desired response. The fact of the matter is the discussion is about going faster through a turn. Thus, it makes no difference whether novice or pro. Anyone interested in going faster should be learning the proper technique as early on in their tracking journey as possible because bad habits are hard to break.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by okusa

Also in agreement and also feel like some responses have conveniently changed the facts to justify the desired response. The fact of the matter is the discussion is about going faster through a turn. Thus, it makes no difference whether novice or pro. Anyone interested in going faster should be learning the proper technique as early on in their tracking journey as possible because bad habits are hard to break.

But if you can’t feel what the car is doing or grip available, learning a technique for the sake of being advanced isn’t going to pay any dividends other than saying “I do blank”.

Taking things simply can offer a focus on feel which will guarantee speed later. And not just in your car, on those tires, at that track, with x conditions, etc.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by Tommysalami

What do you consider "advanced" technique? The concept of advanced driving technique was always weird to me since even the pros are just doing the same basic fundamentals, just better than us.

Trying to distill here. A truly advanced driver is adjusting rotation on corner entry to match exit traction requirements of every specific corner. A base novice is generally not rotating at all, and if they do it’s by accident and they are not comfortable with it at all. Both drivers are trail braking, but specific execution and outcome is obviously very different.

So if you tell them to brake at the ideal point for a low speed exit corner in a 400+ hp car, they are not going to be able to handle the amount of rotation that goes with that ideal braking point (aside from the fact that they will feel like they are going to go off and be semi-panicked). You need to bring them into the technique slowly, in almost all cases.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Tommysalami

What do you consider "advanced" technique? The concept of advanced driving technique was always weird to me since even the pros are just doing the same basic fundamentals, just better than us.

Anyone can trail brake, trail braking is not advanced. But the difference is an advanced driver can trail brake at or at least near the limit of grip and do it somewhat consistently.

Maybe I misspoke earlier but there really isn’t an advanced technique but there certainly is an advanced way to apply a technique.

Advanced drivers know when to apply a certain technique. If you’re slower on faster tires then that is most certainly a skill issue in applying all of the driving techniques. Trail braking more or less isn’t going to fix that.

[Disgustipated]

Originally Posted by spooni

Bought my old NT03 back from a friend and mounted up some RE71RS(pre heat cycled from TR!). Can’t wait to set some PBs. I guess these Enkeis are about as light as you can get at 17.2lbs each.

These are 20+ lbs each, not 17. The NT03+M sacrifices weight savings for more structural integrity.

[gmx]

I agree with you esp on your previous post. Over here, it's even worse. All you need is 5 track days to get in "advanced". Yup, just 5 to be a mobile chicane.

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Trying to distill here. A truly advanced driver is adjusting rotation on corner entry to match exit traction requirements of every specific corner. A base novice is generally not rotating at all, and if they do it’s by accident and they are not comfortable with it at all. Both drivers are trail braking, but specific execution and outcome is obviously very different.

So if you tell them to brake at the ideal point for a low speed exit corner in a 400+ hp car, they are not going to be able to handle the amount of rotation that goes with that ideal braking point (aside from the fact that they will feel like they are going to go off and be semi-panicked). You need to bring them into the technique slowly, in almost all cases.

If I was gifted with the opportunity personally, I'd observe first [or preferably read telemetry]. I've noticed the really good instructors are basically very good listeners too. As in, if I was in the passenger seat, I'd be looking at their visionary traits and when they're applying the primary three inputs. Then go from there. If the person isn't trail braking deep but compounding that with early throttle, then I'd probably force them to rather coast till the apex to build that habit. Sometimes we just have to accept to go slower in order to go faster esp when relearning specifics.
But I'm not a coach. I can just read telemetry based on **shudders** extensive sim experience. I also believe a good coach articulation skillset converges with the race engineer. In modern times, this separates the fast from the ones a notch above; think Verstappen etc.
There's a funny story about Mika Hakkinen complaining about understeer. So they threw increasingly more front at it. To which he complains it got worse. Poor guy was scrubbing the tyres out of habit to force the car into understeer because it was so nervous for him, lol. You would see a hint of it in the primary three inputs such as steering angle.

[rhyary]

all the discussions about driving techniques are a good topic with many good points and few simplistic suggestions. The main challenge is to convert a discussion into action plan a driver can execute. call it a procedure to improve. There are so many connected actions, but where to start?

When I look at someones data, I am not looking for the ultimate results. I am looking for low hanging fruit. What can I suggest that is easiest to implement?

I will give specific example:
I look at the relationship between steering angle and the throttle. If I see the steering angle increased and the throttle % also increase, I recommend that the driver FORCE themselves to NOT apply throttle before he can open the steering NO MATTER how slow they go.

What I am looking for is for the driver brain to develop a vacuum. I want them to feel the agony of going too slow. Before, based on the data, the driver was compensating for slow entry speed with early application of the throttle. The problem is that the brain developed the wrong idea. The brain now feel that the car is on the edge, and the feeling of “I am going as fast as I can possibly go” sets in. Now if you feel that you are on the edge, to go faster you develop the habit of taking more risk. This I don’t like. I don’t want my driver to develop to habit of risk tolerance.

My philosophy is that stepping into a track day, you assume a certain risk. My goal is to go as fast as I can keeping the risk constant.

There is a lot more things like that that I do, but rather than a superficial list, I wanted to delve deep into one thing.

As usual, comments are welcome.