ESS VT2-650 Engine Blowout/Bearing Failure at 20k miles

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by h4nh

OP never said he was going to try to trick the dealer. If your 20k engine blew up would you have any thoughts of trying to getting it warrantied if your warranty was not up yet?

Nobody really had issues with the E9X m3 till recently for them to figure out internals need to be built. There's some M3s here that have been supercharged 80k+ miles out of it with no issues. So most would assume it would be no issue.

I'm sure more people have blown up their engines and have not posted it publicly because people start pointing fingers and bashing on them. Just be happy he posted it so other forum members can be more cautious.

and thats why i dont mod BMWs. stick to Japanese or american V8s for that.

[V8FunNaturally]

Likeliness the ESS Supercharger compromised the engine and lead to blown engine : 99.99999999999999999999% likeliness it would have happened on a stock, non ECU tuned engine 0.0000000000000000000001%. Those 08's who had issue were tuned if not SC'ed.
On a first order approximation a boost of 8 PSI increases the charge by +60%. Revving up a SC'ed engine to 8,000 rpm with that kind of hop without an engine designed for it will destroy it very soon. For example Ferrari's crankshaft are balanced to within 1 gram. If you want to play with SC do it on a muscle car that won't be revved high. Why do you think the M3 GTS was not TC or SC ? High reving turbocharged engine have to be designed from scratch, not aftermarket or it will drastically shorten its life.

[TrevorM3]

Originally Posted by sunsweet

Likeliness the ESS Supercharger compromised the engine and lead to blown engine : 99.99999999999999999999% likeliness it would have happened on a stock, non ECU tuned engine 0.0000000000000000000001%. Those 08's who had issue were tuned if not SC'ed.
On a first order approximation a boost of 8 PSI increases the charge by +60%. Revving up a SC'ed engine to 8,000 rpm with that kind of hop without an engine designed for it will destroy it very soon. For example Ferrari's crankshaft are balanced to within 1 gram. If you want to play with SC do it on a muscle car that won't be revved high. Why do you think the M3 GTS was not TC or SC ? High reving turbocharged engine have to be designed from scratch, not aftermarket or it will drastically shorten its life.

So what you're implying is... if this was your car you'd blame it on the SC?
Or S/C company?

[maximus54]

Over on M5board we have had 3 S85 engines go down due to bearing failure in the last month. Years range from '06-'09, mileage was around 44K/60K/85K, and luckily 2 were under warranty. The S85 and S65 use the same rod bearings. And I don't believe any of the cars were SC.

[chris s]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Oh look, made up numbers. No real life data to back up that claim.

Exactly what i was going to say... What a garbage post. Not a single ounce of data to back up any of his BS.

Oh wait, he has 88 posts too...

[baba louey]

Originally Posted by h4nh

OP never said he was going to try to trick the dealer. If your 20k engine blew up would you have any thoughts of trying to getting it warrantied if your warranty was not up yet?

Nobody really had issues with the E9X m3 till recently for them to figure out internals need to be built. There's some M3s here that have been supercharged 80k+ miles out of it with no issues. So most would assume it would be no issue.

I'm sure more people have blown up their engines and have not posted it publicly because people start pointing fingers and bashing on them. Just be happy he posted it so other forum members can be more cautious.

To answer your question about warranty, yes, 35 years ago, I would have considered putting the stock parts back on and taking it back to BMW. Today, I would take it back, tell BMW what happened and see if they would cover it.

I love modding engines too. There is nothing more satisfying than hopping up a motor and feeling the difference that it makes. Unfortunately, SC'ing or TC'ing are a little too convenient a way to boost HP. Bolt something on and voila!, 50% HP gain for an afternoon's worth of work. To make a reliable engine at those HP levels would require a total rework of the inners. Pistons, rods, caps, bolts, bearing, gears, etc. all come to mind.

I do have sympathy with the OP as the cost of a new motor will be dear. BTW do we have a prognosis on what failed yet?

[exmowner]

As per a local engine builders advice, replacing rod bearings without addressing the root cause of the issue (ie. oil starvation, clearance ect) is a band aid method.

Also from my understanding bmw measures clearance when selecting the correct bearings for our cars and replacing them with a ''one size fits all'' is not ideal.

Who's to say that if OP would have replaced his engine oil every 3000miles that this would still be the outcome?

[baba louey]

Clearancing an engine is a labour intensive job. Maybe that accounts for some of the high cost of this car. I remember using something called Plastic Gage in high school shop. I used it on crank and con rod bearings. The variation was surprising sometimes. Hopefully the manufacturers have higher precision now.

[positiveions]

Sorry to hear about your ordeal OP. I think what happened is that you had a weak rod from the beginning, and added supercharger caused further stress.

[BMW Fanatic]

I don't have time to read this whole thread so maybe somebody else has already pointed out these issues and points but here goes;
1) my engine blew at 12k, they replaced it because I had it towed directly their and BMW recognized that.
2) they will be asking you questions about why you never brought it in right away and I hope you don't get stumped like that.
3) they will probably take a look at this thread, people from BMW head offices are on these forums and to keep their own integrity they will probably tell the higher up people.
4) nobody can just assume that the ESS SC had something to do with this, they make a great product as seen all around the world.
5) good luck with everything man, I hope it all works out and congrats on the 2013!

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by positiveions

I think what happened is that you had a weak rod from the beginning, and added supercharger caused further stress.

Instead I think the rod bearing were fine but the S/C mod stressed the parts outside of their reliability envelope.

[Kmad86]

Just out of curiosity, when the rod bearing goes bad in his case, and the oil goes everywhere, what exactly happens?

Also, Why does it take a whole new motor to fix it, and not just certain internals for the motor?

Just learning and curious.

[positiveions]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Instead I think the rod bearing were fine but the S/C mod stressed the parts outside of their reliability envelope.

Nahh, I don't think so. How many guys are running the same kit, and yet maybe couple claimed rod failures.
Most likely, these are defective from the manufacturer.

[shadye90]

Originally Posted by Kmad86

Just out of curiosity, when the rod bearing goes bad in his case, and the oil goes everywhere, what exactly happens?

Also, Why does it take a whole new motor to fix it, and not just certain internals for the motor?

Just learning and curious.

Many things can result when a rod bearing fails. The most common failure is when the rod itself has let loose and blew out of the side of the block and in some cases before letting loose it shot straight up and destroyed all the valves and combustion chamber/cylinder head before exiting the block.

[shadye90]

Originally Posted by baba louey

Clearancing an engine is a labour intensive job. Maybe that accounts for some of the high cost of this car. I remember using something called Plastic Gage in high school shop. I used it on crank and con rod bearings. The variation was surprising sometimes. Hopefully the manufacturers have higher precision now.

Even with all the precise tools that allow for exact measurements these days it is still never a bad idea to double check using plastic guage on any low end build..

[Vic311]

Originally Posted by Ezio

The m3 was not made for this kind of power. Of course it can handle more power. but 200hp+ over factory and driven hard...... dam.

I have said this all along, but it is pointless to try and convince some of the hardcore SC folks

Plus adding this much power necessitates beefing up the driveline, suspension and almost every other major component on the car

Enjoy the car in N/A form as it was meant to be. Grabbing some additional power through a tune and/or removing exhaust restriction is about as far as anyone should really go.

[S65]

Originally Posted by Vic311

I have said this all along, but it is pointless to try and convince some of the hardcore SC folks

Plus adding this much power necessitates beefing up the driveline, suspension and almost every other major component on the car

Enjoy the car in N/A form as it was meant to be. Grabbing some additional power through a tune and/or removing exhaust restriction is about as far as anyone should really go.

After reading this, the 4.6L stroker seems to be the way to go.

[baba louey]

Originally Posted by shadye90

Even with all the precise tools that allow for exact measurements these days it is still never a bad idea to double check using plastic guage on any low end build..

I agree. Attention to detail always wins in the end.

[BMRLVR]

Some questions that should be asked are:

1)Was the engine oil always at operating temp before running the car hard? Running an engine hard with cold oil is extremely hard on the bearings, especially on an SC'ed engine

2)What kind of fuel was used in the car?

3)What were the service intervals and engine oil type that the owner was using for oil changes?

4)Did the engine ever suffer a mechanical over-rev? (is it a manual transmission car?)

5)Was the ESS kit unmodified from how it was delivered?

[sales@ESSTuning]

Motor failures are never fun but in this business it is going to happen no matter how careful you are or how much you try to avoid it. In almost every case we have seen it is due to improper use or a failure of OEM hardware. We have seen a handful of rod bearing failures on the S65 and the S85 over the years and not just on supercharged motors. The S65 and S85 seem to have a very small % that have been compromised by bearing failures. Considering that we have supercharged close to 650 of these cars the failure rate has been extremely low. The risk of bearing failure goes way up with improper tunning, abuse, bad fuel, high boost or a combination of. I personally only know of 4 supercharged motors that have had bearing failures. 2 of these cars had VT2-650 kits of which both were running lower than minimum octane rated fuel. 1 VT2-625 and 1 S85 that is supercharged. If you exclude the 2 that were user error that is only 2 supercharged cars "3 if we assume Marks is a rod bearing" in the past 5 years. The fact is that this platform has been very reliable with boost when you stay within it's proper limits.

When bearing failure is caught early typically the motor can be saved with minor costs involved. When it's not it is almost always a new motor that is needed as damage to the cylinder walls cannot be repaired and often the crank is damaged. As we have collected more and more data from motors we inspect we have been making customers and our dealers aware that preventative maintenance should be taken into serious consideration when running anything over 7 psi on these motors even though the failure rate on cars that are operating as intended has been very very low. Once you cross over 7 psi there is noticeably more stress on these motors and they also become very dependent on fuel quality. This is why we stress 93+ octane fuel on these kits and is why we have suggested replacing rod bearings in the past on the 650 kit for added safety. We have moved on from strongly suggesting it to now including upgraded bearings standard with the VT2-650 kit so customers understand how serious we are. We also now offer upgraded rod bearings as an option for customers who want to replace their existing set.

Even if it is only 1 out of every 10,000 cars that are exposed to potential failures it is better to educate the community and be proactive so that people can weigh the risks involved when wanting to push the limits of the S65 with high boost and be more mindful on how they use and maintenance the car if they do.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by positiveions

Nahh, I don't think so. How many guys are running the same kit, and yet maybe couple claimed rod failures.
Most likely, these are defective from the manufacturer.

Its simple maths.
Tens of thousands of NA engines for a few failures
Hundreds of SCed engines for a few failures.
Divide the numbers to give the odds that the engine you SCed just happened to have a rod bearings that would have failed *if you had left the engine as standard*.
Keep adding stress to an engine and eventually the weakest part will fail...this doesn't mean that the part is defective for the function that it was designed for, but simply that you have exceeded its design tolerance.

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

Motor failures are never fun but in this business it is going to happen no matter how careful you are or how much you try to avoid it. In almost every case we have seen it is due to improper use or a failure of OEM hardware. We have seen a handful of rod bearing failures on the S65 and the S85 over the years and not just on supercharged motors. The S65 and S85 seem to have a very small % that have been compromised by bearing failures. Considering that we have supercharged close to 650 of these cars the failure rate has been extremely low. The risk of bearing failure goes way up with improper tunning, abuse, bad fuel, high boost or a combination of. I personally only know of 4 supercharged motors that have had bearing failures. 2 of these cars had VT2-650 kits of which both were running lower than minimum octane rated fuel. 1 VT2-625 and 1 S85 that is supercharged. If you exclude the 2 that were user error that is only 2 supercharged cars "3 if we assume Marks is a rod bearing" in the past 5 years. The fact is that this platform has been very reliable with boost when you stay within it's proper limits.

When bearing failure is caught early typically the motor can be saved with minor costs involved. When it's not it is almost always a new motor that is needed as damage to the cylinder walls cannot be repaired and often the crank is damaged. As we have collected more and more data from motors we inspect we have been making customers and our dealers aware that preventative maintenance should be taken into serious consideration when running anything over 7 psi on these motors even though the failure rate on cars that are operating as intended has been very very low. Once you cross over 7 psi there is noticeably more stress on these motors and they also become very dependent on fuel quality. This is why we stress 93+ octane fuel on these kits and is why we have suggested replacing rod bearings in the past on the 650 kit for added safety. We have moved on from strongly suggesting it to now including upgraded bearings standard with the VT2-650 kit so customers understand how serious we are. We also now offer upgraded rod bearings as an option for customers who want to replace their existing set.

Even if it is only 1 out of every 10,000 cars that are exposed to potential failures it is better to educate the community and be proactive so that people can weigh the risks involved when wanting to push the limits of the S65 with high boost and be more mindful on how they use and maintenance the car if they do.

What happens with your customers that got a 650 kit when you sold it with out the bearings?