The unacceptable danger of modern track-day coaching - Road & Track

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Actually the sport I've been injured the most in is...basketball. Yes, a girl sport.

So from dangerous to safe...basketball > skiing > ice hockey > track driving

ACL?

[Groundpilot]

Originally Posted by M4isKing

ACL?

Most dangerous sports: horseback riding, cheerleading, gymnastics, bull riding, football.
In that order

[Sleeper519]

Originally Posted by Groundpilot

Most dangerous sports: horseback riding, cheerleading, gymnastics, bull riding, football.
In that order

Base jumping and wingsuit flying.

[LiM3y]

Originally Posted by Groundpilot

Most dangerous sports: horseback riding, cheerleading, gymnastics, bull riding, football.

In that order

Sounds like the recipe for a perfect weekend!

[Killerfish2012]

Running with the bulls in spain >*

[Killerfish2012]

Just stick all noobs in this, problem solved:

[Groundpilot]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Running with the bulls in spain >*

Thats madness, not sport.

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by Groundpilot

Most dangerous sports: horseback riding, cheerleading, gymnastics, bull riding, football.
In that order

dodgeball is far worse than football and it didnt make your list? disrespectful to the sport.

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Just stick all noobs in this, problem solved:

this is why i want to go to stanford for my mba. now, to ace my gmat.

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by M4isKing

dodgeball is far worse than football and it didnt make your list? disrespectful to the sport.

If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

[Sleeper519]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Just stick all noobs in this, problem solved:

Interesting, the robot trail brakes all the way to the apex, doesn't see-saw the steering wheel, and.. I bet could really ghost ride the whip!

[Mthrice]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq

If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by Groundpilot

Most dangerous sports: horseback riding, cheerleading, gymnastics, bull riding, football.
In that order

Someone's never gone mountain biking or done any other extreme sports before.

[1MOREMOD]

bull riding would seem to top the list of those you mentioned. take big hits every time you ride unlike horse riding, cheerleading and gymnastics. last two may account for lots of acl injuries but that about it. 3000lb animal doesnt come trample you when you fall in cheeleading.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Actually the sport I've been injured the most in is...basketball. Yes, a girl sport.

So from dangerous to safe...basketball > skiing > ice hockey > track driving

i have injured my acl playing basketball, skiing and riding motorcross which is also good for a lot of injuries. to myself and the bike most times you go out.

[bigjae1976]

I'm just curious...who has instructed a novice or low intermediate driver on R-Comps? I just instructed one at Road America who was on R6s after his 5th event. I knew him and he has the right frame of mind so I wasn't too worried. But this was my first time seeing this because the DE org I primarily instructed with in TX does not allow R-Comps in lower run groups.

It sure did make instructing more challenging. It was very hard to hit home how his brake to throttle transition was holding him back. It took all weekend for it to sink in because his R6s would allow him to be pretty sloppy at times and still close in on most cars in the corner and on exit.

I did talk to the organizer and mentioned banning 100 and lower treadwear tires in the novice level. We'll see what happens. Next year, if I get into a novice car with R-Comps, I'm walking away.

[Feuerbach]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I'm just curious...who has instructed a novice or low intermediate driver on R-Comps? I just instructed one at Road America who was on R6s after his 5th event. I knew him and he has the right frame of mind so I wasn't too worried. But this was my first time seeing this because the DE org I primarily instructed with in TX does not allow R-Comps in lower run groups.

It sure did make instructing more challenging. It was very hard to hit home how his brake to throttle transition was holding him back. It took all weekend for it to sink in because his R6s would allow him to be pretty sloppy at times and still close in on most cars in the corner and on exit.

I did talk to the organizer and mentioned banning 100 and lower treadwear tires in the novice level. We'll see what happens. Next year, if I get into a novice car with R-Comps, I'm walking away.

I went out to MSR-H back in May with my father, I often invite friends and family to drive my car with me. I am an intermediate/advanced driver so I sign them up in novice and pull double duty with the car.

I ran NT-05 for the first day as it was my first time at that particular track, then switched to NT-01 for the next day. I spoke with my fathers instructor and he was wary of having my father on NT-01 but didn't say no. I felt bad about putting him in that position and it definitely stymied my Dad's driving that second day.

What is the particular issue with say 100 tread wear tires with a new driver besides hiding their errors? I understand with something like the R6 the grip and fall off of that grip could get you in a quickly deteriorating situation with no hope that the student would be able to save you both. Are 100 tread wear tires that dangerous?

I wouldn't have switched to NT-01 with some of my other friends but my father is a pretty mature guy and wasn't looking at this lap times at all... but it's the instructor in the car, not me.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I'm just curious...who has instructed a novice or low intermediate driver on R-Comps? I just instructed one at Road America who was on R6s after his 5th event. I knew him and he has the right frame of mind so I wasn't too worried. But this was my first time seeing this because the DE org I primarily instructed with in TX does not allow R-Comps in lower run groups.

It sure did make instructing more challenging. It was very hard to hit home how his brake to throttle transition was holding him back. It took all weekend for it to sink in because his R6s would allow him to be pretty sloppy at times and still close in on most cars in the corner and on exit.

I did talk to the organizer and mentioned banning 100 and lower treadwear tires in the novice level. We'll see what happens. Next year, if I get into a novice car with R-Comps, I'm walking away.

I understand about not wanting to be in a car on rcomps with a novice but do you drive a car with rs3 the same as r6? I don't think about how slow I should be going if I had on a different tire but about how much I can get out of what's on the car. Going back to a street tire would be a big adjustment but doable.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Feuerbach

I went out to MSR-H back in May with my father, I often invite friends and family to drive my car with me. I am an intermediate/advanced driver so I sign them up in novice and pull double duty with the car.

I ran NT-05 for the first day as it was my first time at that particular track, then switched to NT-01 for the next day. I spoke with my fathers instructor and he was wary of having my father on NT-01 but didn't say no. I felt bad about putting him in that position and it definitely stymied my Dad's driving that second day.

What is the particular issue with say 100 tread wear tires with a new driver besides hiding their errors? I understand with something like the R6 the grip and fall off of that grip could get you in a quickly deteriorating situation with no hope that the student would be able to save you both. Are 100 tread wear tires that dangerous?

I wouldn't have switched to NT-01 with some of my other friends but my father is a pretty mature guy and wasn't looking at this lap times at all... but it's the instructor in the car, not me.

100 tread wear is the generally accepted cut off for street tires. RS3s used to be 140 and were suddenly changed to 200 (presumably so they could be used in chump car and auto-x orgs which limit tires to a UTOQ of 200).

The biggest problem with an R6 or even NT01 is that it hides errors. It also allows novice drivers to build speed much quicker. So at TWS for example, an NT01 can easily be 2-3 MPH quicker out of T15 going CCW. That will mean you are probably gaining 10-15mph at the end of the straight. Things are happening faster for a student who has not developed the cognitive skills required for high speed driving. Then you go off or spin going that much faster.

Although NT01s break away progressively unlike a conti scrub or R6, they will nonetheless be a handful if the rear end breaks loose. Most will not make a noise until its too late.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

I understand about not wanting to be in a car on rcomps with a novice but do you drive a car with rs3 the same as r6? I don't think about how slow I should be going if I had on a different tire but about how much I can get out of what's on the car. Going back to a street tire would be a big adjustment but doable.

I don't make too much of an adjustment on conti scrubs, R6s and NT01s vs RS3s, NT05s and PSS. The biggest difference is braking and how much throttle you can add early in the corner. Do you think novices understand how their tires work and what condition they are in? Most have no clue until one gets corded and the car gets squirrely. Lots of intermediate and advanced students have no clue.

I think its interesting that around the upper mid west...I see about 50% of the novices on R-Comps. Lots of BMW drivers too!

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I don't make too much of an adjustment on conti scrubs, R6s and NT01s vs RS3s, NT05s and PSS. The biggest difference is braking and how much throttle you can add early in the corner. Do you think novices understand how their tires work and what condition they are in? Most have no clue until one gets corded and the car gets squirrely. Lots of intermediate and advanced students have no clue.

I think its interesting that around the upper mid west...I see about 50% of the novices on R-Comps. Lots of BMW drivers too!

Yeah agree those are biggest differences they allow you to attack corner entry and exit much more. I've corded 10 tires in my last 6 days out or so and am aware of the feel when I start getting tail happy for reasons besides driver error. I'm always aware of my tire condition because I pull them after every track day to clean clag and rotate according to wear as well as mid day at the track. I'm a believer in being prepared, not only because it's safer but because I enjoy working on my car. A prepared driver is also a fast one or so I hope.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Yeah agree those are biggest differences they allow you to attack corner entry and exit much more. I've corded 10 tires in my last 6 days out or so and am aware of the feel when I start getting tail happy for reasons besides driver error. I'm always aware of my tire condition because I pull them after every track day to clean clag and rotate according to wear as well as mid day at the track. I'm a believer in being prepared, not only because it's safer but because I enjoy working on my car. A prepared driver is also a fast one or so I hope.

What I was told and what I've learned with the conti scrubs is that your tires will last WAY longer if you choose which turns to attack aggressively and which ones where you aren't using every bit of grip. If I just go balls out they will heat cycle and die pretty quickly.