2011 335is: Is anyone else a little pissed?

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by 335lvr

Ehhh, the M3 is definitely superior, no doubt. But the lack of torque down low is a deal breaker, well,..that and the cost. I've driven an S2000 and the power delivery is much different, imho. Where the S2000 has no balls until you get the revs up, at least the M will push you back in your seat. I get the point though, and its a matter of personal preference. I prefer lazy ass torque myself..I don't like having to downshift or wait for the revs to build.

I am worried about the torque. The more I read in the forums, everyone is trying to fix it... it is a rocket past 5 or 6, but lacking below that -from what I read.

I have been driving my 335i Dinan and it just goes in any rev range, any gear. For a daily driver it is great - especially if you are on the phone and can't be bothered to downshift and just need to get around someone. I will ask the dealer for another test drive on the M3 again and confirm that for a daily driver it will be acceptable. EVERYTHING else about the M3 is just fantastic.... I will have to compromise on the torque.

Has anybody done the rear end gears (final drive to 4.11, the pulley - no exhaust) - does this really improve the torque? that maybe worth the upgrade right out of the gate - before I get it.

Any comments?

[TheRealOrosie]

Originally Posted by DaFish

I am worried about the torque. The more I read in the forums, everyone is trying to fix it... it is a rocket past 5 or 6, but lacking below that -from what I read.

I have been driving my 335i Dinan and it just goes in any rev range, any gear. For a daily driver it is great - especially if you are on the phone and can't be bothered to downshift and just need to get around someone. I will ask the dealer for another test drive on the M3 again and confirm that for a daily driver it will be acceptable. EVERYTHING else about the M3 is just fantastic.... I will have to compromise on the torque.

Has anybody done the rear end gears (final drive to 4.11, the pulley - no exhaust) - does this really improve the torque? that maybe worth the upgrade right out of the gate - before I get it.

Any comments?

Still on the fence?

Torque is nice in the 335i (again, I had a stage 2 Dinan flash)..but I could not stand the power drop after 5k. It was like falling off a cliff. Exact opposite with the M. It becomes a beast after 5k....with plenty of usable torque below that.

I dont miss my old 335 on bit.

Nuff said.

[ss134]

If you want torque get a 335d not a 335i! My year old 335i is going next month to make way for a E90 M3 DCT, have a lo0k at how many 335 owners trade their 335 for an M3.....it tells a story.

[TheRealOrosie]

Originally Posted by 335lvr

Ehhh, the M3 is definitely superior, no doubt. But the lack of torque down low is a deal breaker, well,..that and the cost. I've driven an S2000 and the power delivery is much different, imho. Where the S2000 has no balls until you get the revs up, at least the M will push you back in your seat. I get the point though, and its a matter of personal preference. I prefer lazy ass torque myself..I don't like having to downshift or wait for the revs to build.

Hence my statement "except with way more power and torque". I owned an S2000...and now an M3...and the power delivery (meaning the way it is delivered...not the actual power)...is very much alike.

[gthal]

IMO, the M3 has a TON of torque for daily driving. Anything over 3.5k RPM and their is lots of pull and grunt. As much as a Dinan 335? Maybe not but lots nontheless. And, as everyone says, the car continues to build power ALL the way to redline. It is quite dramatic actually.

I have never felt that the car was lacking. Are there cars with more low end torque? Absolutely! But so what, how much torque does anyone need on a public street anyway? The M3 has more than needed at all engine speeds north of 3k and who runs their car under that anyway?

[m3convertdriver]

Originally Posted by brava09

it's something very nice...try again, the page is still there.

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[mixja]

For all those worried about the torque differences between the M3 and 335i, assuming we are talking MT in both cars, bear in mind that the M3 and 335i share the same transmission, but the final drive on the M3 is 3.85 vs 3.08 on the 335i.

This means the M3 has a 25% in-gear torque advantage and because of its much higher redline doesn't sacrifice any in-gear speed (i.e. an M3 @ 8300RPM in 1st gear runs the same speed as a 335i @ 7000RPM in 1st gear).

So the only place really where a 335i has any advantage over an M3 is between 1500-3000RPM.

If you are worried about low-end torque, a Powerchip tune and primary cat delete/aftermarket X-Pipe (~$1500US for the tune + primary cat delete) should net you around 15% gains in low-end torque.

[Kbueno]

Originally Posted by P-TownM3

Hence my statement "except with way more power and torque". I owned an S2000...and now an M3...and the power delivery (meaning the way it is delivered...not the actual power)...is very much alike.

Understood and I agree. Pulls in the upper RPMs all the way to red-line.

Originally Posted by mixja

For all those worried about the torque differences between the M3 and 335i, assuming we are talking MT in both cars, bear in mind that the M3 and 335i share the same transmission, but the final drive on the M3 is 3.85 vs 3.08 on the 335i.

This means the M3 has a 25% in-gear torque advantage and because of its much higher redline doesn't sacrifice any in-gear speed (i.e. an M3 @ 8300RPM in 1st gear runs the same speed as a 335i @ 7000RPM in 1st gear).

So the only place really where a 335i has any advantage over an M3 is between 1500-3000RPM.

If you are worried about low-end torque, a Powerchip tune and primary cat delete/aftermarket X-Pipe (~$1500US for the tune + primary cat delete) should net you around 15% gains in low-end torque.

I've heard the numbers argument before and I totally agree you can mod the M3 to get some additional power down low. But stock for stock, and thoroughly flogging the cars back to back, the M3 lack of torque in the lowers is apparent. Definitely two different driving styles...just takes a little more work in the M3 to keep me smiling. Those driving an M3 have nothing to feel bad about with release of the 335is...please.

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by 335lvr

Definitely two different driving styles...just takes a little more work in the M3 to keep me smiling. Those driving an M3 have nothing to feel bad about with release of the 335is...please.

I think that is the bottom line isn't it? That you need to change your driving style.

1) Keep the RPMs in the higher rev range yourself (I ordered a 6MT)
2) Drop 1 or 2 gears when you are ready to do something. And then you are really smiling.....

I have been practising on my 335i (while I wait for June delivery) a highway direct 6th to 3rd down shift. I believe this will be easier on the M3 due to how fast the revs build ...

Question:

On the upgrade on the final drive ratio of 4.11 gears in the back (6MT) and the dinan pulley, and powerchip (and not the mid pipe due to higher sound) - has anybody done this - how big is there in the "butt dyno" ? gains of 20 ft/lb in torque ?

Thanks everyone.

[ersin]

I don't know of anyone who has changed the final drive on the M3 but for every car that has made this change the answer is yes, you can definitely feel the difference on the butt dyno. In fact, even a Powerchip tune alone will make differences that the ole butt dyno will detect. So, I'm sure the mods you suggest will work together for significantly felt gains.

Cheers.

[ss134]

Originally Posted by DaFish

I think that is the bottom line isn't it? That you need to change your driving style.

1) Keep the RPMs in the higher rev range yourself (I ordered a 6MT)
2) Drop 1 or 2 gears when you are ready to do something. And then you are really smiling.....

I have been practising on my 335i (while I wait for June delivery) a highway direct 6th to 3rd down shift. I believe this will be easier on the M3 due to how fast the revs build ...

Question:

On the upgrade on the final drive ratio of 4.11 gears in the back (6MT) and the dinan pulley, and powerchip (and not the mid pipe due to higher sound) - has anybody done this - how big is there in the "butt dyno" ? gains of 20 ft/lb in torque ?

Thanks everyone.

Much easier to keep this car in its power band with the DCT, a couple of clicks and youre on it, this is the main reason i ordered my car with DCT, if it had more low end torque i would have definately went with 6MT - for a bit more involvement.

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by P-TownM3

Still on the fence?

Torque is nice in the 335i (again, I had a stage 2 Dinan flash)..but I could not stand the power drop after 5k. It was like falling off a cliff. Exact opposite with the M. It becomes a beast after 5k....with plenty of usable torque below that.

I dont miss my old 335 on bit.

Nuff said.

Hey P-TownM3. I have to report back in. I went back to the dealer on Sat and test drove a 2007 M3 6MT (they wouldn`t let me take a new one because I wanted an extended drive - no prob). The ride to the dealer is about 50 min and has a whole bunch of winding country roads - perfect.

I absolutely laid the boots to my Dinan 335i on the way in. Stop and start - hard in every gear, and every RPM range. I then did the same to the M3, but the primary goal of the test drive was to see how the M3 was in "normal" daily driving. Here are my observations:

1) 1st gear:
- 335i is a rocket - when it hooks up... I can't seem to get the power down consistently. usually just breaks loose and DTC lights. Left or Right turns, you can't get the power down for sure. Most of the time, I go easy in first cause I have to.
-M3: Instant power - and my f'n GOD was it fast... I was astounded.... Power on left and right turns was still great due to the LSD. Incredible... You can use the power much more on the M3 in 1st due to the traction and LSD, so it is quicker.

2) 2nd gear:
- 335i is just a rocket - when it hooks up... but it breaks loose a lot.
a) Usually, the DTC just lights up. Take the DTC off, and the rear end is squishing all over to get traction (also due to the subframe bushings and no LSD). LOTS of steering input needed to keep the car straight. Left or Right turns, you can't get the power down for sure, or 1 wheel just spins out of a corner (DTC off).
b) With DTC on, it just cuts power out of a turn and kills your fun.
c) If in second around 3-4k RPM - tromp the gas and there is almost a 2 second delay for the turbos to spool up before the immense rush of power - that part is just fabulous, if it hooks up (when it does it is breath taking...)
They say the M3 is faster, but if this thing hooked up, it would really be close I think....

-M3:
a) If I have just red lined 1st, 2nd shift is absolutely incredible.... Instant power - and my f'n GOD was it fast... I was giggling like an 8 year old girl... it was embarrasing....
b) If in second around 2.5-4k RPM, instant throttle when tromp gas - pulls right away, but not as intense as 335i for sure. Then a few seconds later 5k RPM hits and HANG THE HECK ON !!! WOW!! What I did notice was how straight the car tracked, no wiggle, no squishing around, solid, straight and controlled - and holy crap did it take off from 6k to red line - completely additctive.
c) There is a long left hand bend on the road - solidly in second, foot to the floor and no spin, no slide, just solid power and traction and it was a thing of beauty and what I have been missing in my 335 - it was so great.

3) 3rd gear:
- 335i is just a rocket - probably it`s best gear due to traction.
a) LOTS of steering input needed to keep the car straight.
c) If in second around 3-4k RPM - tromp the gas and there is almost a 2 second delay for the turbos to spool up before the immense rush of power. Shift before red line for max power

-M3:
a) If I have just red lined 2nd, 3rd is again absolutely incredible.... Instant power - and the pull to redline was nothing short of startling... I actually laughed out loud. I am going to be thrilled with this power.
b) If in third around 2.5-4k RPM in town, instant throttle when tromp gas - pulls right away, but not near as intense as 335i for sure. That is certainly different. Then 5k RPM hits and WOW !!! Again, car tracked straight, no wiggle, no squishing around, solid, straight and controlled. WOW!!

3) 4th, 5th and 6th gear:
- 335i has power in any gear, any RPM. As a daily highway cruiser, it is beautiful. Around 3-4k RPM - tromp the gas and there is almost a 2 second delay for the turbos to spool up before the immense rush of power. It pulls like crazy....

-M3:
a) if you are over 5-6k - you will loose your license and you better get use to Police body cavity searches..... you just can not let up due to the additive rush of the power.
b) If in third around 2.5-4k RPM in town, immediate pull, but I could have used more torque, it was ok but not as good as the 335i. You can drop a gear or 2 and then you are in WOW space. It is good enough though. I think once you get used to the car and do not have the 335 to remind you of the mountain of torque you are missing, that will be better.

In summary, there are so many things that the M3 has that are WAY better.
1) Sound of the motor - LOVE it
2) 1st, 2nd traction and pull - LOVE it
3a) handling - the steering is SO much better - WAY better. The 335 plows into corners MUCH more.
3b) Flat handling - I really noticed how much flatter the rear is. When I got back into my 335i, the car really twisted and rolled, and flexed in comparison, it needs to be fixed.
4) planted chassis - you feel solid in this car - it does not waiver or stray around under power. Does not tramline as much in ruts on the highway
5) Seats - believe it or not, better than the sport seats in 335 - which are fantastic
6) Carbon trim - LOVE it
7) EDC - stiffens steering, ride DOES change on the shocks - LOVE that
8) Throttle response - WOW - LOVE that - M mode, instant revs
9) LCD, chassis, traction - LOVE it
10) new 825 watt upgraded stereo... in a word - INCREDIBLE - just the best.

The car is designed to handle 414 HP or more. The 335 is designed to handle 300 or a bit more.

NOW I am excited for my delivery of the 2011 M3 Competition package, Jerez, black leather, carbon, M package, executive package, EDC, basically every option other than the DCT.

Thanks for all your answers to my questions - and sorry if I jacked the thread.

DaFish

[m3convertdriver]

Originally Posted by DaFish

Hey P-TownM3. I have to report back in. I went back to the dealer on Sat and test drove a 2007 M3 6MT (they wouldn`t let me take a new one because I wanted an extended drive - no prob). The ride to the dealer is about 50 min and has a whole bunch of winding country roads - perfect.

...

DaFish

great summary- thanks

[mixja]

Originally Posted by 335lvr

I've heard the numbers argument before and I totally agree you can mod the M3 to get some additional power down low. But stock for stock, and thoroughly flogging the cars back to back, the M3 lack of torque in the lowers is apparent. Definitely two different driving styles...just takes a little more work in the M3 to keep me smiling. Those driving an M3 have nothing to feel bad about with release of the 335is...please.

I don't think you are hearing me - STOCK vs STOCK - the M3 has a 25% higher final drive ratio meaning it has 25% more in-gear torque at the wheels than the 335i. The comparison is simple because both cars share the same gear box. Because the M3 has a much higher redline, it doesn't lose any speed due to the higher final drive ratio.

Here is an example that might make it clearer. The graph below is torque delivered to the wheels in third gear, based upon vehicle speed. Granted the 335i is slightly lighter so the effective acceleration will be more in the 335i's favour, but the difference will be very slight.

As you can see the 335i only has an advantage below say 30mph (48km/h) - given the weight differences, maybe 35mph (56km/h) - this is around 2700RPM on the M3. The exact same comparison applies for any gear because both cars share the same gearbox - the only thing that changes is the speed depending on which gear you look at.

Note that the torque data is based upon dyno testing data from www.rri.se - and note that the torque values recorded for the 335i in this test data do reflect that it is underrated.

And since this thread is about the 335is, I added 10% to the 335i figures and graphed them separately - even with the extra 10% torque at the wheels and taking into account slight weight differences, I can't see the 335is having an advantage STOCK vs STOCK over the M3 over 40mph (~3000rpm).

[DaFish]

In addition to the summary I wrote a few posts back - if you were to compare the 335is to the 335 Dinan.... get a 335i take the 2k for the Dinan software and sink the rest of the cash you would save by not getting the 335is into some of the M3 suspension bits - certainly the front end steering and control arms. This would be cheap and would fix a lot of steering feel and control - and much more power than the 335is. I believe the 335is is way over priced for what you get - it is very nice looking though - I saw one today.

Does the 335is compare or is it close to the M3 - nope - see my post above.

The M3 is a stupid amount of money though.... but my God it is good. I must be stupid... they are getting my money.

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by mixja

And since this thread is about the 335is, I added 10% to the 335i figures and graphed them separately - even with the extra 10% torque at the wheels and taking into account slight weight differences, I can't see the 335is having an advantage STOCK vs STOCK over the M3 over 40mph (~3000rpm).

I am struggling to accept this graph.... The twin turbo boosted motor should have more torque than the M3. These charts seem to be reversed to me.... (M3 vs 335is lines)... how can this be?

[mixja]

Originally Posted by DaFish

I am struggling to accept this graph.... The twin turbo boosted motor should have more torque than the M3. These charts seem to be reversed to me.... (M3 vs 335is lines)... how can this be?

The 335is motor DOES make more torque than the M3 - 332lbft vs 295lbft - at the engine.

The 335is MT gearbox is the same gearbox as the M3 MT - but the final drive ratio in the 335is is 20% less than the M3 final drive ratio (or the other way round, the M3 final drive is 25% higher than the 335is).

So in any given gear, the M3 get 25% more multiplication of torque at the wheels than what the 335is does.

Now because of this final drive ratio difference, of course at a given RPM in any gear, the M3 is travelling at a lower speed than the 335is. But the graph posted is showing speed vs torque at wheels, which of course is what actually matters. Because the M3 has a much higher redline (8300rpm), it can actually reach a slightly higher maximum speed for each gear than the 335is, even though it has a much higher final drive ratio.

[FStop7]

i think the 335is is hot with the new fascia and am considering switching to one because I'm kind of burned out on the whole fast car thing.

But like I said before, I am not "pissed" about the 335is - BMW didn't update the E46 M3 front end with the LCI changes, so I wasn't expecting they would with the E9x. From a performance standpoint... really? How many 335i owners have switched to M3s and posted about how much better it is? At least 20. Because it's true. There is no comparison from a performance standpoint, the M3 kills it. I'm considering switching to a 335is or an F10 535i because I'm burned out and want something less hardcore.

That is all.

[Cl0ud7]

Originally Posted by FStop7

i think the 335is is hot with the new fascia and am considering switching to one because I'm kind of burned out on the whole fast car thing.

But like I said before, I am not "pissed" about the 335is - BMW didn't update the E46 M3 front end with the LCI changes, so I wasn't expecting they would with the E9x. From a performance standpoint... really? How many 335i owners have switched to M3s and posted about how much better it is? At least 20. Because it's true. There is no comparison from a performance standpoint, the M3 kills it. I'm considering switching to a 335is or an F10 535i because I'm burned out and want something less hardcore.

That is all.

I vote F10 535i

[BMWCadet]

Originally Posted by FStop7

i think the 335is is hot with the new fascia and am considering switching to one because I'm kind of burned out on the whole fast car thing.

But like I said before, I am not "pissed" about the 335is - BMW didn't update the E46 M3 front end with the LCI changes, so I wasn't expecting they would with the E9x. From a performance standpoint... really? How many 335i owners have switched to M3s and posted about how much better it is? At least 20. Because it's true. There is no comparison from a performance standpoint, the M3 kills it. I'm considering switching to a 335is or an F10 535i because I'm burned out and want something less hardcore.

That is all.

You sure it's because you want to do better than 13mpg and not have to rev the hell out of a car in order to get real power?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by BMWCadet

...not have to rev the hell out of a car in order to get real power?

Yes, because having a turbo charger means I can shift at 3K RPM and still enjoy all of the car's potential.

If you have a 335i and you are not using the entire 7K RPM rev range, then you are not accelerating nearly as fast as possible. In fact, you might as well be driving a 328i.

[sikoskul]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Yes, because having a turbo charger means I can shift at 3K RPM and still enjoy all of the car's potential.

If you have a 335i and you are not using the entire 7K RPM rev range, then you are not accelerating nearly as fast as possible. In fact, you might as well be driving a 328i.

I always thought that you shifted the 335 at around 6k due to the torque leveling off.