|
|
03-01-2011, 07:16 PM | #67 | |||
Lieutenant General
634
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Round and round we go. It appears neither side will give in.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | |
|||
Appreciate
0
|
03-01-2011, 07:38 PM | #69 | |||
Lieutenant General
634
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
It is the engineering AND the interface which define a trasmission. From (not the most authoritative web site but a good one still..), How Stuff Works, Quote:
Nope, replacing the human with a computer and hydraulics is not enough to change the name of the unit. It is the two clutches and essentially two manual transmissions in parallel that is the huge worthwhile innovation of a DCT to call it something different. DCT or automated manual.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | |
|||
Appreciate
0
|
03-01-2011, 07:46 PM | #70 |
Lieutenant Colonel
20
Rep 1,504
Posts |
The M3 is offered with the choice of two different manual transmissions, a 6-speed and a 7-speed.
__________________
'09 E92 M3 6MT | Alpine White | Black Leather | EDC | CL Trim | 19s
'03 E46 330i 6MT | Electric Red | Black Leather | ZSP | Bi-Xenons |
Appreciate
0
|
03-01-2011, 08:00 PM | #71 | |||||||
Lieutenant General
634
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Quote:
It takes two to tango... Quote:
Quote:
I fully embrace my personal choice and don't worry at all what that says about me. I like to debate issues from the technology and the performance to the naming. No ego really involved. It is the engineering inside of the units that drives part of my passion. As well as the real world manifestation of the designs. The way that the feel informs you of what you are driving. I also love beating up on luddites... Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Lastly can you humor me and name the VAG forum(s) you have followed and how closely you have followed them and for which of the plethora of VAG DSGs you have gathered evidence for to make that conclusion? I thought so.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | |
|||||||
Appreciate
0
|
03-01-2011, 08:20 PM | #72 | |
Lieutenant General
634
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Quote:
You need to realize that the term balance is both a practical as well a precise engineering term. Just because something feels smooth does not mean the engine is a balanced design. The word "nothing" as you used also has a precise meaning. Easy to shrug off the details when you are wrong and don't want to admit it. Just call it nonsense or make up your own personal definition and call the discussion over.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-01-2011, 11:41 PM | #73 | |||
Colonel
99
Rep 2,000
Posts |
Really? I am a major fan of this type of transmission, and have been ever since Porsche first introduced it, what, about 30 years ago? It is an absolutely wonderful idea, as I've mentioned a number of times. BMW's rollout, however, has been a joke. It's taken them, what, around three years to get it close to right? This is almost as bad as their recent foray into turbocharging.
Quote:
Take a pill. Take a shot. Calm down. Quote:
VW/Audi never had problems as deep as this, and particularly not for this duration. Quote:
Porsche has had a few problems, but again, BMW still holds the crown for worst rollout of this technology. Oh, almost forgot. Just like the '41 Oldsmobile, you can shift the auto M3 or it shifts itself. No clutch pedal in either car. Automatics both. Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 03-01-2011 at 11:54 PM.. |
|||
Appreciate
0
|
03-02-2011, 08:32 AM | #74 | ||
Moderator
7537
Rep 19,368
Posts |
Swamp, you're getting so worked up here that you are now replying to the same posts twice with two completely different replies. See? Take a deep breath, man.
Quote:
Quote:
Honestly, I don't think its prudent to continue to the debate. We'll agree to disagree on this. |
||
Appreciate
0
|
03-02-2011, 11:35 AM | #75 | |
Brigadier General
443
Rep 3,888
Posts |
Quote:
Funny how all threads end up on the same DCT debate. Eventough I like manual transmission, I don't cara whether DCT or AUTO or whatever. What is important is that it works nice and that the gearing is right. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-03-2011, 12:57 AM | #76 | |||
Lieutenant General
634
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Quote:
I interpreted your comment about Jim winning with a 2 speed auto as some anecdotal evidence of how great automatic transmissions are for racing. My reply had nothing to do with your interests. You misread that. Quote:
Quote:
By the way did you also follow all of the other major DCT launches like Nissan and Mitsubishi. I'd be willing to bet all had some issues. Despite your claim about Porsche inventing (modern) DCTs so many decades ago true modern DCTs are very complex both in terms of their hardware and software. Some growing pains are expected and they happened with other brands as well. You are entitled to your opinion, me to mine. Unfortunately for you both a significant number of forum members here voted on their idea of the best and most accurate term and automatic did not win. Also as I mentioned most journalists prefer some term other than automatic.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | |
|||
Appreciate
0
|
03-03-2011, 01:34 AM | #77 | |||
Lieutenant General
634
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
You can believe what you want about ego. My feelings come from my passion for the technology and my strong belief in choosing the best jargon based on the criteria I have listed. I can just as easily argue that for you and Bruce to put so much effort into the "tango" that it must also involve some significant ego on your behalf. Typically I won't resort to that and will continue a debate at its face value. I'm also fine agreeing to disagree. I'm just not sure I can bite my tongue fully when the term automatic is used. Some of this absolutely comes from by background in science and engineering, i.e. the focus on the details of what is inside. To me that counts enormously. Quote:
The traditional transmission names (auto/manual) due to historical norms have implications both on how each type of unit is designed, built and how it will feel and perform. There is also an implication on the user interface. I agree that modern transmissions both dual mode DCTs and modern paddle shifting autos (planetary autos specifically) blur some of these lines. However, to most accurately capture ALL aspects of these various criteria I believe either automated manual or dual clutch are superior terms over automatic for a dual clutch. It is fairly clear that the source of the disagreement is that we each have different criteria. If we have different criteria we certainly won't come to an agreement. Again, I'm fine to agree to disagree at this point.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | |
|||
Appreciate
0
|
03-03-2011, 08:32 AM | #78 | ||
Moderator
7537
Rep 19,368
Posts |
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...1&postcount=65
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...1&postcount=74 Quote:
By that same token, there's nothing wrong with simply calling a DCT or DSG or PDK a dual clutch gearbox as long as you apply the same level of specificity to all other transmissions. So in that context, you then call BMW's Steptronic (for example) a torque converter planetary gearbox, and you call Mercedes MCT a wet-clutch planetary gearbox. What you cannot do though, logically, is call these latter types automatics, while at the same time refusing to apply that same term to a DCT. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to do so. Not to repeat myself, but I'll say again that I personally am fine with using the traditional term "automatic" instead of coming up with new terms simply because the term automatic has been applied to "automanuals" for years now and I don't expect it will change. If you like your new term better then, great. I just don't agree that the DCT alone is cause to rethink the terminology. Rather, the time to rethink it was long ago. DCT is merely the latest in a series of innovations that break the mold of the automatic transmission. Quote:
|
||
Appreciate
0
|
03-04-2011, 11:08 AM | #79 |
Colonel
99
Rep 2,000
Posts |
Agreed. The difference is that I don't insist that others agree with my opinion.
i.e. I don't correct people when they use the term twin clutch, or automated manual, or whatever. For me, automatic works just fine, but hey, differentiate away. Just stop being the jargon police. I'm done on this issue. On a topic that is within waving distance of the OP, I'm starting to get a little excited at what the coming years are going to bring to automotive technology. While I'm almost certain to be pissed off about the new M3's size and weight, I'm betting that the loss of a liter (probably) and 12-1400 rpm will be more than made up for by having horsepower to burn, and stunning torque available pretty much everywhere in the rpm band. MPG will return to acceptability, as well. Further, there appears to be a battle in transmission technology looming. Twin-clutch autos vs 27-speed (or whatever) planetary gears. It'll be very interesting to see how this plays out, market segment by market segment. For me, it means that in a couple of years or so, I'll be joining the dark side with one of these transmissions, kicking and screaming. They're just so damn good... |
Appreciate
0
|
03-05-2011, 01:27 AM | #80 | |
PCA, BMWCCA
103
Rep 2,058
Posts |
Quote:
What's most unfortunate (and often too common on this board) is when "automatic" is used as a term to cause hostility as much as a description of type function. You know who you are and should be flogged repeatedly for being so immature!
__________________
'08 Carrera S 6MT Guards Red/Black ext leather, Carbon fiber pkg, sport exh, sport chrono +, PASM, Nav, Bose, 19" forged turbos, red tranny tunnel
'07 MV Agusta F4 1000 R 1+1, Corse Red/Silver, RG3 race pipes and factory race ECU |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-05-2011, 03:11 AM | #81 | |
Lieutenant General
634
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Well as long as we're being more civil I suppose we can continue, despite Bruce's good efforts to get back OT...
Quote:
On the other hand a dual clutch transmission is a very novel and revolutionary design. Two manuals, placed in parallel, with seemingly impossible multiple gears engaged simultaneously, made possible by twin, again concentric clutches and an all hydraulic and computer controlled actuation system with both full automatic and full manual modes. These systems are designed such that human control over the shift forks and pattern would be more or less impossible. They are designed from the ground up with the concept that the shifting will be done by mechatronics. That is revolutionary, not evolutionary (and that is why DCT is also so very different than SMG). I'm sure you'll disagree...
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-05-2011, 03:43 AM | #82 | ||
Lieutenant General
634
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
Bringing the term sequential back to mkoesel's approach for naming is an interesting topic. What should a sequential transmission be called? I would guess his name would simply be manual transmission. That is certainly not terrible, however, obviously, the VAST majority of the automotive world felt a new term was needed and chose one - "sequential" or "sequential manual". Perfectly fine with me. In cars they tend to be used exclusively in racing. Also they do have a unique identifying feature/character to their user interface - the single, dual action gear selector. Works under my naming scheme, just call it a sequential manual. That captures the design, internals, interface, experience (a typically very firm, fast, and notchy actuation) and even the appropriate/understood "connotations".
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | |
||
Appreciate
0
|
03-05-2011, 08:52 AM | #83 |
Brigadier General
443
Rep 3,888
Posts |
I did not create this thread to talk about gearboxes, but about how the M3's V8 can be compared to the Ferrari flatcrank V8, and how the next TT I6 could be compared with the MP4-12C TT V8, if M does their homework properly.
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-05-2011, 10:44 AM | #85 | |
PCA, BMWCCA
103
Rep 2,058
Posts |
Quote:
Personally I like sequential manuals to describe all types. Yes you can skip gears by pulling the lever in quick succession but only 2 at a time. It's still a manual input from the driver. And sorry to Levi for this thread becoming so jacked.
__________________
'08 Carrera S 6MT Guards Red/Black ext leather, Carbon fiber pkg, sport exh, sport chrono +, PASM, Nav, Bose, 19" forged turbos, red tranny tunnel
'07 MV Agusta F4 1000 R 1+1, Corse Red/Silver, RG3 race pipes and factory race ECU |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-05-2011, 08:26 PM | #86 | |
Lieutenant General
634
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Quote:
Indeed, sorry to Levi a well, this was a MASSIVE off topic onslaught... The mods could clean up the thread pretty easily. Anyone can report threads that are crass, OT or anyhting else that may violate forum rules. Just click the little reg/white/black exclamation point in the lower left under the avatar area in a post.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-05-2011, 09:43 PM | #87 |
Lieutenant
74
Rep 493
Posts |
3.0L TT? Yeah right.
The specs are probably going to be something like: 3.6L TT I6 @ 450HP The HP rating probably won't be a big jump, as I imagine M division will probably be focusing more on weight savings. |
Appreciate
0
|
03-06-2011, 07:27 AM | #88 |
Brigadier General
443
Rep 3,888
Posts |
3.6l TT I6 with only 450 HP? I do not see any efficiency. What is then the purpose of having it twin turboed? A NA 3.6 I6 would make 450 HP (125 HP/l), just as the Ferrari 458 Italia and the "old and cheap" Honda S2000.
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
|
|