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12-20-2010, 06:15 AM | #45 |
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Well, it is MY point, however, I also prefer the best HP NA engines over the best FI ones. Although I much prefer my .2 GT3 over my previous .1 997 turbo, the turbo was still a marvel to drive. I will occasionally miss that Star-ship Enterprise Warp 8, Scottie give her all your got man, thrust of the turbo, but once I hear and feel 8500 rpms of the GT3, the feeling subsides quickly. Porsche did an excellent job with their VTG turbo technology and I would expect no less from BMW maybe even more (not power but execution).
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12-20-2010, 06:36 AM | #46 | |
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Using the DIN curb weights you posted to correct kg/hp ratios, there are differences yet the general pattern of generational kg/hp improvement remains. It still appears that in order for the next generation M3 to match the historical generational kg/wt ratio reduction average (i.e. 11.67%), some output of 470hp will be needed with DIN curb weight remaining the same 1,605kg that it is for the E92M3.
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12-20-2010, 07:32 AM | #47 | |
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I'm a porsche guy, but BMW has been building more technically advanced motors for years, hands down (with a couple exceptions, ie CGT). The GT3 and GT2 are both based on the metzger block, designed as air-cooled way back when. While this allows an amazing evolution, the downside is that the motor is not all that high tech, and it's heavy. Not surprising when you realize they took an air-cooled motor design and bolted on 40 years of technology (water jackets, power steering pumps, emissions equipment, etc). On a power to weight and tech basis BMW has been leading, not following. If they put their minds to it and spend the money (which they have done in previous Ms) I believe they will set the standard. The real question in my mind is if they are moving towards Porsche or Lexus with the chassis...
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12-20-2010, 08:22 AM | #48 | |
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In terms of the F32 M3, I hope BMW can shave about 100-200lbs from the e92 platform. I've been reading that BMW is well aware of the unhealthy weight increase in their cars and working to control this so hopefully they do something to mitigate the trend. While I'm not excited about the prospect of them putting a TT engine in the car, on a positive note I do think that with it, the days of a C63's straight line dominance and people's complaints of lack of low end torque may be over. Also, I still have faith the BMW M will do some serious work to the engine to make it earn the S badging. In a dream world, I'd like the M3 GTS engine in the F32 M3 |
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12-20-2010, 09:09 AM | #49 | ||
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There is literally zero chance that they use an N55 in this car. It will be an S55 (or S56, if an N56 debuts in next couple years) with some very advanced turbo technology never seen before on any production car. |
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12-20-2010, 09:21 AM | #50 |
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Everything on Roundel for the last few months has said the next M3 will have a turbo I6. It'd also been said BMW believes the ideal cylinder size to be 0.5L; thus is especially true for the M division, but who knows with Segler running the show now.
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12-20-2010, 09:37 AM | #51 |
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[QUOTE=shift@red;8532962]The thing is, the GT3 doesnt need anything more than what it is/has. It is THE winningest car in motorsport history from THE winningest manufacturer in motorsport history. Why mess with what works? Its not supposed to be a high tech motor. Its just supposed to be a reliable one that wins races and does so with ease over the v8 competition. Cars like the 911 turbo pack a lot of tech, and things im sure BMW wont have for quite a while in their cars.
^^^ Exactly! The Metzger engine has a long history of winning races and endurance reliability. Although there may be higher tech stuff, the GT3 with 114.4 hp per liter and the RS with 118.4 speaks volumes. Their current torque curves are very, very impressive as well. The engine isn't what I would think as heavy considering that the new and future use 9A1 is only (roughly) 13 lbs lghter. These engines are bullet proof as well. These cars with the Metzger will be sought after in years to come, imo. Not many manufacturers are making true race ready dry sumps either. The new (2009) 9A1 is an "integrated wet sump" in Porsche speak. Last edited by devo; 12-21-2010 at 05:39 AM.. |
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12-20-2010, 09:38 AM | #52 | |
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I would be willing to place a wager on the first character of the F1x M3's engine name being an "S".
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IMHO the "S55" (working name for now) will share less parts with an N55 than today's S63 shares with the N63. I suppose that isn't saying much, but my point is that I believe as time goes on, the M motors will likely veer more from the series motors. At the same time, I expect that the shortblock and probably much of the longblock will stay. Though I could easily see M specific heads and valvetrain for the F3x M3 and/or F2x 1M. |
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12-20-2010, 10:59 AM | #53 | |
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In the general BMW pricing architecture, sub 4 second 0-60 times will be reserved for the M5 and M6 price brackets for at least one more generation. The next M3 will be published in the low 4's. |
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12-20-2010, 11:20 AM | #54 | ||
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I do agree that the M3 won't have advertised acceleration times better than the M5. But it will definitely be faster than a 750i for less money - the current car already accomplishes that and there's no way the new one will base at 80k like a 750Li does. Last edited by mkoesel; 12-20-2010 at 11:26 AM.. |
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12-20-2010, 01:58 PM | #55 |
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That is a very bold claim. Now I agree it won't be named N55, but that is not the same thing as being mostly an N55 motor at heart. If you make the claim of zero chance for an N55 variant I'd strongly disagree.
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12-20-2010, 02:02 PM | #56 |
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I agree but, in the real world it will almost for sure break 4.0 and get into the 3's! BMW is always very conservative in its officiall performance figures. They want to make sure every car and most drivers can get those numbers even under non ideal environmental (road, weather, tires) conditions.
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12-20-2010, 02:13 PM | #57 |
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wow!!!1
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12-20-2010, 02:21 PM | #58 |
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On the contrary, I think there is almost zero chance of it not using an N55 variant. The only thing that could make that happen is if an N56 is to appear within the next few years (like I said above).
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12-20-2010, 02:32 PM | #59 | |
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M5 = 10cyl -> 8cyl Turbo M3 = 8cyl -> 6cyl Turbo ? ?? |
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12-20-2010, 02:48 PM | #60 | |
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12-20-2010, 02:54 PM | #61 | |
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I think these are best case scenario lol... If u wanna know the 0-60 and quarter mile time just wait for the m5, should be easy to guess then. +/- 0.1s of the f10 m5 0-60 time and I doubt it will be more than 450 hp for the m3
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12-20-2010, 02:58 PM | #62 | |
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Listen, I'm not saying the F32 won't be a great car, because it will be. Just as I have said over and over again that the S4 and C63 are great cars, but that's what they are, great cars, just like a 335iS, and tuned 335i with the N54 are great cars. To me, the e92s and GT3s are not great cars but SPECIAL cars. They are the closet thing to an exotic without being an exotic (well, GT3 probably counts). I'm not trying to compare a GT3 with a ///M, so please don't think that. All I am trying to do is make the point of the difference between a GTR and an ///M. The GTR trashes the ///M on a track and on the road, but damn, nothing feels or drives like that ///M or GT3. I don't mind having a FI variant of the ///M3, I do have a problem with NOT offering an N/A variant. Its like the difference between your wife, and the other great woman you dated before the wife who was hot........both are great women, but there is something special about your wife that you can't quite put into words other than to say "that's why she's my wife". Make sense? BMW has always been my wife, with most of Porsche, Audi & Merc being my "other" woman (no, I don't cheat on my wife). Now, it looks like I'm going to have to file for divorce Cheers, e46e92
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12-20-2010, 03:03 PM | #63 | |
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Time will tell I guess..... |
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12-20-2010, 03:07 PM | #64 |
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As far as the debate about them using an N55 in the M3, you have to remember the 1M was made on a tight time constraint. This car will debut in 2012/13, which gives BMW a ton of time to really develop an engine.
We will see an S engine. Also remember BMW doesn't need to play horsepower wars. Regardless of the HP, the car will be faster around the ring than the competition. Just like we saw with the 1M. |
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12-20-2010, 03:46 PM | #65 |
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^^^ This should add some of that soul you're looking for:
http://www.autoweek.com/article/2010...NEWS/101209992 Sorry Swamp, it's OT I know, but I had to do it. It's almost Xmas and a guy can have a gift list, right? Last edited by devo; 12-20-2010 at 04:05 PM.. |
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12-20-2010, 04:00 PM | #66 |
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I think what will define M from its line brethern will be hte use of Carbon Fiber pannels in F30 gen M....
I think wight will be BMWs trump card with the use of their new CF plnt (s) ~Frost
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