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11-24-2009, 06:58 PM | #199 | ||
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'09 Interlagos Blue E92 M3 (sold to a good home)
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11-24-2009, 08:08 PM | #200 | |
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11-24-2009, 08:13 PM | #201 | |
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You know, people wonder why I spent so much money on the E30. I could have bought a newer faster track car. Whatever the reason, it is clearly subjective. The kind of reason that makes you giggle under your helmet like a child after each pit out. BMW had all the ingredients to make that happen for the E92 as well, but it almost seems like they went 90% of the way (technically), and then turned around and undid all that (to sell 100000 units), so we ended up with a car that could have been IMO. Yet, I am convinced the backbone is there, and it will take some more depreciation to justify surgery and the courage to strip it into shape. I saw the car Turner converted earlier this year at the track. Its owner was racing it and having a blast. He hadn't gone all the way with it in terms of the weight, but with some drastic measures, a properly caged car can be sub-3000lb and a lot of fun.
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11-24-2009, 10:03 PM | #202 |
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C63 is the car you want then with a 7100 rpm rev limit. You also get all the low end torque with it. Not an M3. There is a reason why F458 has a 9000 rpm redline and so does Lexus LF-A. Lambos are no different. It is all about exhilaration that comes with sound that sonorous and impossible to create with low-revving engines.
Yes there is a huge difference in feel, sound and the rush that comes with getting the revs closing to 8500 rpm and piston speeds approaching F1 racing car. Completely different experience.
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11-24-2009, 10:15 PM | #203 |
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This is a big misconception. A $2000 ecu tune takes a big fat flat torque curve and spikes it much higher but still the torque spread falls dramatically as it does stock starting between 5K and 5.5K rpms all the way to redline. There's no getting around the fact the motor can't handle the load at high rpms. What that yields is an even more imbalanced power band and 1) causes even worse traction off the line, and 2) a very erratic power delivery. $2000 would be better spent on a gear change and perhaps a mild ecu tune to enhance the curve without making a pyramid out of it. But tuners sell their product based on the fact buyers are seduced by much higher peak HP and torque figures. I don't think I've ever seen a tuner compare stock vs. tuned acceleration figures to support their new dyno curves. The much higher peak will yield much less of an overall affect than consumers would dare to admit for fear of admitting being duped. Linear power is much better an more usable than peaky power.
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11-24-2009, 10:22 PM | #204 | |
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11-24-2009, 10:51 PM | #205 | |
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11-24-2009, 10:55 PM | #206 | |
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I agree with you to a certain extent. Some cars can benefit from a lower final drive (numerical higher number) while other cars might not benefit from them. High revving cars generally do well with shorter final drive.
An example I saw was on a honda site where they put a 4.77:1 final drive on one S2000 while the other one was kept stock. The S2000 with 4.77:1 out-accelerated the stock S2000 uptill 90 - 95 mph and then after that the stock S2000 kept up till the race was shut down. Quote:
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11-24-2009, 10:57 PM | #207 |
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Depends on the shape of the torque curve surrounding that 100 lb-ft of torque. Peak explains little. Also, rpm is what drives up terminal speed in a given gear so it's important also. It's all important. I agree with you if squeezing the throttle to US city/highway speed limit thresholds (and maybe a bit more) is all you ever do. If that's the case, why drive a car geared for near 200 mph and only utilize a third of its capability? Did you buy for show or go? Nevermind, I know the answer...
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11-24-2009, 11:05 PM | #208 | |
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Setting the price difference aside for a second, a good example is a Corvette Grand Sport (436 HP) vs Porsche GT3 997.2 (435 HP) where the Corvette puts out nearly 100 ft-lbs more torque than the GT3 that uses a tiny 3.8 Liter engine vs 6.2 Liter V8, but a lofty 8800 rpm rev limit. Both cars weigh almost the same (3200 lbs).
Yet, the GT3 being a high-11 second car simply manhandles the grand sport in a drag race and around a race track it is a completely different story where it is faster than a Z06 and it sound out of this world while doing it. Quote:
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""A great sounding, responsive, high-revving, naturally aspirated engine is part of the DNA of a thoroughbred sports car. No two ways about it."
- Lamborghini on turbocharging Last edited by 330CIZHP; 11-24-2009 at 11:34 PM.. |
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11-25-2009, 01:21 AM | #209 | |
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And all this talk about being in the right gear, sure makes it seem like the M3 S65 is just much better mated to DCT for daily driving. It just makes it so much easier to stay in the right power-band.
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11-25-2009, 02:14 AM | #210 | |
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In my 335i I was not using 3rd gear to overtake from 30mph....I was using the 2nd gear....and definitely I am using the 2nd gear in my M3 to overtake from 30mph....so what is your point?? Is your point that there are lazy people that prefer not to use the gear stick while driving? Get a slush box then and floor it.... In gear times are relevant only for lazy people IMO. But then the M3 is not for lazy people. |
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11-25-2009, 02:40 AM | #212 | |
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11-25-2009, 02:42 AM | #213 | |
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11-25-2009, 02:59 AM | #214 | |
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I absolutely am not claiming that FD ratios are fully optimized in all sporty cars, I am also not claiming that some metrics can not be improved with FD modifications. I am not claiming that modding your FD won't make your call FEEL a bit faster. However, I am vehemently arguing, in the case of the M3 ,there is little to nothing to be gained in most real world acceleration metrics through a FD mod. The benefits of either 7 gears and DCT vs. 6 or even a few percent hp increase will trump what you would get from any reasonable FD mod. Really, think very carefully about what a huge FD modification would mean. Also think carefully about an acceleration run involving multiple gears and the disadvantage of spending more time in gears offering less torque. There is no such thing as a free lunch here.
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11-25-2009, 08:43 AM | #215 |
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The misconception is all yours.
I guess Dinan managed to fool me for 180,000 kilometers. http://www.dinancars.com/assets/File...A%20EDITED.pdf
The real problem is the sheer amount of torque - not the distribution, which is actually improved. The car pulled strongly to 5700 or so. I considered getting an LSD but ultimately a car with this much torque needs an active differential, which I'm sure the F30 M3 will get. Last edited by BimmerBoomer; 11-25-2009 at 09:22 AM.. |
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11-25-2009, 10:06 AM | #216 | |
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11-25-2009, 11:28 AM | #217 | |
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I can tell you that my experience in driving everything from humble city cars to full blown exotics is vast and I know a hell of a lot about the benefits and downfalls of all types of engines. The very fact you suggest an automatic as a fix proves to me that you don't know as much as you think. P.S. Surprisingly the 335i has been mentioned very little because it's not the best example of the breed to chose from and M-Division has something much better in mind for the next M3. |
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11-25-2009, 12:37 PM | #218 |
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But...
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11-25-2009, 01:09 PM | #219 |
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Seeing the X5 M, X6 M 5700 lbs heavy tanks and the upcoming 4500 lbs M5 with the same low-revving 7000 rpm redline and twin turbo setup, you are definitely right.
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