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      01-14-2020, 01:25 PM   #45
EricSMG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14_deltaM3 View Post
I’d say it’s the opposite. Your post suggests the s65 has all the flexibility you can need, but then you ask for more mid range anyways. Hence my point that what you’re really asking for is the artificially high mid range and low end torque offered by a turbo engine. Or else an engine like the VQ that is all mid range.

Your point about the s65 and s55 relative curves is also irrelevant given the scale difference in torque. The s55 is delivering over 400 pound feet at that point.
Good post.

Broad <> flexible if the absolute value is too low. It simply means broad here.

The S65 actually has a much broader torque curve than the S65. It makes proportionately more of its peak tq for a wider rpm range. It just doesn't quite make enough to be "exciting" in the real world on a warm day.

I could care less about low end (<3k). Both motors suck in that regard anyway. The S55 is a totally out of boost/very laggy and feels exactly like an S54 in the real world below 3k.

But let me ask you - why is it that asking for a little more real-world punch automatically means I want turbo torque? I never wanted any more punch in all of my E46Ms and they are WAY WAY slower than the F80. My frustration with the E9XM happened before I ever even test drove an F80... I went straight from an E46M to an E9XM. I'm simply illustrating the flaw in your generalization(s) that modern turbo power is the reason for wanting more punch from the S65 - not the case at all.
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      01-14-2020, 02:22 PM   #46
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I actually find my E90M3 with all the bolt on mods to be Entertaining in the lower gears below 6000 rpm. Where I get bored is when I am in an upper gear line 4, 5 of 6 at low rpm and donít want to bother down shifting. There is little torque multiplication in the upper gears and the relatively low and flat torque curve seems boring and slow to me. The diff is 10% shorter than the F80, but that is not enough to make a huge difference (E39M5 has torque similar to the F80 but only a 3.15 rather than a 3.46). I know the remedy is to downshift but I am often a lazy driver (which is why my next car will be a self shifter ó DCT/PDK/auto). Anyway, try a nicely modded E9xM3 and you will find itís pretty good in 1 through 3 between 2000 and 6000 where much daily driving occurs.
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      01-14-2020, 02:38 PM   #47
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Good input, Phil^^

I've no doubt the FBO really wakes it up. Honestly, I think SC'ing is the way to go. Big mid-range, HUGE top end. And all of the other wonderful attributes of the E9XM with no much total investment including the car.
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      01-14-2020, 06:03 PM   #48
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I would SC mine, but have had other financial priorities. I probably will buy a used kit if I keep the car. The longer I can stay happy with it, the longer I put off the much more expensive car that I want. I have another car that is much faster, so the E90 just has to be entertaining and it is except during upper gear pulls from low rpm. I am enjoying the Epic Race tune that I added late last year.
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      01-14-2020, 07:34 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
Good post.

Broad <> flexible if the absolute value is too low. It simply means broad here.

The S65 actually has a much broader torque curve than the S65. It makes proportionately more of its peak tq for a wider rpm range. It just doesn't quite make enough to be "exciting" in the real world on a warm day.

I could care less about low end (<3k). Both motors suck in that regard anyway. The S55 is a totally out of boost/very laggy and feels exactly like an S54 in the real world below 3k.

But let me ask you - why is it that asking for a little more real-world punch automatically means I want turbo torque? I never wanted any more punch in all of my E46Ms and they are WAY WAY slower than the F80. My frustration with the E9XM happened before I ever even test drove an F80... I went straight from an E46M to an E9XM. I'm simply illustrating the flaw in your generalization(s) that modern turbo power is the reason for wanting more punch from the S65 - not the case at all.
Fair points. I donít think weíre actually far off the same understanding. in my experience (having driven many e46Ms and owned a euro spec e36) is that the s65 doesnít actually feel ďsoftĒ in the midrange, and to your point, is actually immensely flexible, offering great torque throughout having regard to the displacement and use ability of the engine (that torque being limited to under 300 foot pounds after all ). Indeed, Iím not sure I can point to a 4.0 litre of any car that offers the mid range of the m3 while also possessing its flexibility and top end, short of exotics like the v8 Ferraris and larger displacement Porsche 6s. Frankly, even Porscheís latest GT4s offer broadly similar numbers across the rev range despite being 10+ years newer.

I suppose Iím sensitive to this as Iím tired of reading posts which pass off the torque of the s65 as that of a Honda S2000, which is ridiculous. The only perspective that could lead to such a conclusion is comparing this to an engine double the size, or blown using turbos with absurd and disproportionate mid ranges (but with all the comprises and issues a turbo brings - partly subjective). Thereís a reason after all that Ferrari artificially depresses the mid range torque output of the 488 engine.

Definitely not unresonable to ask for slightly more mid range power as you are, but expectations should be aligned to its displacement and the inherent breathing/cam compromises required to let it rev over 8000rpm.
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      03-08-2020, 11:10 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R3dliner View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPG_LOL View Post
The VQ motor has strong mid range.
Sadly I suspect a Z would be pretty even with a E92 forced to shift at 6KRPM.
Our cars are gutless gas guzzlers, till 6K when they become banshee gas guzzlers..
Highly doubt that. The VHR 3.7 rated at 330 hp dynos in the 250-260 range, I can only imagine a first gen 280hp DE motor will dyno around the low 200's.
I have a first year 2003 350Z with the DE. I dynod it this past summer, with original motor the car is currently at 230k miles, and it put down 243 hp. My E92 M3 is miles better, faster, and more fun to drive. But I still can't get over the feeling of revving the piss out of the VQ and being only slightly over the legal limit. In the M3, top second, start of third gear you're already breaking every limit on the continent.
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      03-10-2020, 11:03 AM   #51
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But top of 2nd is still under 70...
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      03-11-2020, 07:56 AM   #52
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350z is probably more comparable to the E46M3. BMW was doing it years earlier ó in 2001 the E46M3 was truly outstanding. But the 350z is a good value with good aftermarket support.
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      03-11-2020, 03:47 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
350z is probably more comparable to the E46M3. BMW was doing it years earlier — in 2001 the E46M3 was truly outstanding. But the 350z is a good value with good aftermarket support.
I found the S54 to be the most disappointing part of my Z4M. Yes, it revved up to the sky but it was a torqueless wonder. Accelerating in that car was boring.
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      03-11-2020, 04:53 PM   #54
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S54 does not feel as fast as a torquey motor due to the flat torque curve. Wind it up and keep it wound up and it is fun. S65 is the same way, long flat torque curve makes it feel slow. But wind it up and keep it wound up and itís entertaining.
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