2013 e92 M3 trade for 2016 f80

[BarbeRouge]

Originally Posted by GT3fan

I think it goes both ways.

There are plenty of e90/92 owners upgrading to the f80 platform as well.

This forum is biased obviously. I’m sure if you posted on the f80 board, you would get comments like what are you waiting for? Make the trade.

Good luck on your decision.

LOL, you're a funny guy. Upgrade, lol

[SoCalRPM]

Originally Posted by Eja144

I'd probably do it, if not just for the $$. Turn around and sell the F, then go car shopping with deeper pockets.

Although, I'm sure for many people on these boards, the money is a non-factor. So maybe that's unique to my financial circumstances.

On a side note, I've been lurking around here for a couple months and recently bought an M3. Was hoping this forum would be a cool community of driving enthusiasts, but seems more like an ongoing argument about whose dick.. I mean car.. is better. Is that pretty much par for the course around here?

Nah. You gotta sift through some flack but lots of good people and lots of good information on here. I've met a handful of members in real life and we're all just car lovers. Don't get too lost in the shuffle

[Bemo]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

We disagree for sure.

The E92 "M" hydraulic system is very artificial with it's progressive weight. It is also much, much to fast (ratio). It is a good overall system with excellent feedback, but "good steering" is the sum of numerous factors - not only feedback which many seem (including you) to insinuate.

The F80ZCP steering, while having dramatically less direct feedback (agree, not ideal) is far, far more accurate, responsive, better weighted (more natural ramp up) and absolutely perfect ratio. So while it may have way less feedback, it's hands down better in every other aspect. Overall, it's a more rewarding 'system' due to its precision. Plus, the front end grips like a mofo, but that's a different story.

Point is this - nothing is *singular* about cars. They are sum of many attributes and thus must be taken as a whole.

Note - just sold my F80Z and getting back into an E92M, so I'm not one-sided by any means. But let's call things like they are.

Suppose we disagree. Other things equal, responsiveness seems to trump all else steering-wise, in my world. My 911 steering rack is accurate and responsive also but i don't feel any direct feedback, the chassis does the talking which has its own benefits.
But I digress.
I'm glad you liked sum of the parts of the electric steering setup in the F80, it's not for me and I wouldn't trade an E92 for an F80. It's a terrible proposition dynamically and aesthetically, so say nothing of its disappointing turbo motor.
Trust me I'm not blind to the shortcomings of the E92 (the weight is terrible and it can use a bit more torque) so I guess the dilemma is fun and engagement (E92) vs speed and performance (F80) assuming one is actually skilled enough to extract the extra performance...

[leemik]

apples vs oranges.. however, you'll most likely never get a santorini e92 m3 back if you ever have a change of heart.

--mike

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by Eja144

I'd probably do it, if not just for the $$. Turn around and sell the F, then go car shopping with deeper pockets.

Although, I'm sure for many people on these boards, the money is a non-factor. So maybe that's unique to my financial circumstances.

On a side note, I've been lurking around here for a couple months and recently bought an M3. Was hoping this forum would be a cool community of driving enthusiasts, but seems more like an ongoing argument about whose dick.. I mean car.. is better. Is that pretty much par for the course around here?

Hey welcome! Must have missed your intro + pics man??

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by Bemo

Suppose we disagree. Other things equal, responsiveness seems to trump all else steering-wise, in my world. My 911 steering rack is accurate and responsive also but i don't feel any direct feedback, the chassis does the talking which has its own benefits.
But I digress.
I'm glad you liked sum of the parts of the electric steering setup in the F80, it's not for me and I wouldn't trade an E92 for an F80. It's a terrible proposition dynamically and aesthetically, so say nothing of its disappointing turbo motor.
Trust me I'm not blind to the shortcomings of the E92 (the weight is terrible and it can use a bit more torque) so I guess the dilemma is fun and engagement (E92) vs speed and performance (F80) assuming one is actually skilled enough to extract the extra performance...

Good conversation.

The F80Z communicates wonderfully via the chassis. The rear end, in particular, translates in very high resolution through the driver's seat. You can feel exactly what the rear tires are doing and this gives immense confidence with so much grunt. Combine the solid mounted rear end, suspension that feels like it's bolted to the chassis via hiem joints and the micrometer-precise steering and you have an M3 that blows every previous M3 out of the water in terms of road handling.

Again, completely disagree on the motor. The S55 is way more responsive and thrilling than the S65 about ~75% of the time.... and that 75% is all around usefulness in the real world. So, it's usually a significantly more rewarding experience. It's also about twice as powerful feeling in the real world.... HUGE difference in butt dyno output. This does NOT make the S65 a bad motor, just that the S55 is much better in many ways.

However, to be fair, the other 25% is where the S65 really, really shines. If you live above 6k rpm then the S65 is one of the most thrilling experiences in the automotive world - blows the S55 out of the water. Below about 5k, the S65 is pretty "meh" in reality. This does NOT make the S55 a "disappointment", just that it trades this for that. You give some to get some.

So, it is not that one is better or worse. Rather, each have their strengths and thus require different driving styles and thus appeal to different sides of my "enthusiast heart".

But I do agree in general that the E92 M3 leans more towards feel/soul/character (with good performance) while the F8X leans (heavily) towards precision and performance (with adequate feel/soul/character).

[GORDON.M3]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

That's a stretch. I don't believe that "most" go back. How do you even qualify that statement!?! Most of us F8X owners came from previous generation ///M's, and I don't know any who have gone back.

Sorry let me rephrase that, most of my friends have... A friend of mine even sold his M4GTS to back to a Dakar Yellow E92 Individual M3.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Good conversation.

The F80Z communicates wonderfully via the chassis. The rear end, in particular, translates in very high resolution through the driver's seat. You can feel exactly what the rear tires are doing and this gives immense confidence with so much grunt. Combine the solid mounted rear end, suspension that feels like it's bolted to the chassis via hiem joints and the micrometer-precise steering and you have an M3 that blows every previous M3 out of the water in terms of road handling.

Again, completely disagree on the motor. The S55 is way more responsive and thrilling than the S65 about ~75% of the time.... and that 75% is all around usefulness in the real world. So, it's usually a significantly more rewarding experience. It's also about twice as powerful feeling in the real world.... HUGE difference in butt dyno output. This does NOT make the S65 a bad motor, just that the S55 is much better in many ways.

However, to be fair, the other 25% is where the S65 really, really shines. If you live above 6k rpm then the S65 is one of the most thrilling experiences in the automotive world - blows the S55 out of the water. Below about 5k, the S65 is pretty "meh" in reality. This does NOT make the S55 a "disappointment", just that it trades this for that. You give some to get some.

So, it is not that one is better or worse. Rather, each have their strengths and thus require different driving styles and thus appeal to different sides of my "enthusiast heart".

But I do agree in general that the E92 M3 leans more towards feel/soul/character (with good performance) while the F8X leans (heavily) towards precision and performance (with adequate feel/soul/character).

Those are some excellent points. I think many people think that they want a "race" engine and then are disappointed to discover that race engines do not really suit their style.

An example of this is the original NA S2000. The F20C engine, used from 1999 to 2003, was truly a race engine. You had to run it above 6000 (VTEC only kicked in at 6000 lol) to be quick. Red-line was 9000. Peak power was at 8300. Peak torque was 7500... Unfortunately, it had no torque at all when driven like a grocery-getter. As a result of the complaints, Honda changed the NA S2000's engine to a F22C. This 2.2L version red-lined at 8200RPM, produced nominally more HP and torque but the entire power band was shifted to the left. Peak torque was made at 6500 now... I think the S2000's NA engine change was as a result of most NA drivers wanting the feeling of a big block V8.

This is certainly true with cars being produced today. The new M3/M4 produces peak torque at 1850. The M5 produces peak torque at 1500-2200, depending on specific S63 engine model. The new Corvette produces 715 ftlb @ 3600 ffs (above 500 ftlb at 2500). The new AMG 5.5L bi-turbo produces 664 ftlb at 2000.

Contrast this to previous M engines peak-torque/red-line: S14: 4600-4900/7300. S52: 3800/7000. S54: 4900/8000. S65: 3750/8400.

If customers demand high torque at low RPM, then the manufactures will deliver. Unfortunately, this tends to sterilize the experience as you no longer need the revs to make power from small engines.

Anyway, different people want different things. Personally, I love the wide revving range of my S65. If I really wanted low end torque, I would buy another 335d and modify the hell out of it. Or buy a Corvette, Hellcat, Camaro SS, M5, GT-R etc.

Different strokes for different folks, and that is why the world is an interesting place to live. However, the writing is on the wall. Emission regulations are killing large displacement NA engines. I suspect it will not be long before there are no NA performance engines to choose from.

At least I get to enjoy a high revving V8 for a while. Thanks BMW.

Cheers,

[Bemo]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Good conversation.

The F80Z communicates wonderfully via the chassis. The rear end, in particular, translates in very high resolution through the driver's seat. You can feel exactly what the rear tires are doing and this gives immense confidence with so much grunt. Combine the solid mounted rear end, suspension that feels like it's bolted to the chassis via hiem joints and the micrometer-precise steering and you have an M3 that blows every previous M3 out of the water in terms of road handling.

Again, completely disagree on the motor. The S55 is way more responsive and thrilling than the S65 about ~75% of the time.... and that 75% is all around usefulness in the real world. So, it's usually a significantly more rewarding experience. It's also about twice as powerful feeling in the real world.... HUGE difference in butt dyno output. This does NOT make the S65 a bad motor, just that the S55 is much better in many ways.

However, to be fair, the other 25% is where the S65 really, really shines. If you live above 6k rpm then the S65 is one of the most thrilling experiences in the automotive world - blows the S55 out of the water. Below about 5k, the S65 is pretty "meh" in reality. This does NOT make the S55 a "disappointment", just that it trades this for that. You give some to get some.

So, it is not that one is better or worse. Rather, each have their strengths and thus require different driving styles and thus appeal to different sides of my "enthusiast heart".

But I do agree in general that the E92 M3 leans more towards feel/soul/character (with good performance) while the F8X leans (heavily) towards precision and performance (with adequate feel/soul/character).

Good discussion indeed, I would gladly trade speed and performance for engagement and character but others, who track for example, will want to extract every last ounce of acceleration and torque.
As for grip, I've driven many F80s and it seems they can't put down their power efficiently. It appears that too much torque is the problem.
By comparison, my 911 has less torque but insane levels of mechanical grip weaved in predictable, progressive acceleration that only naturally aspirated engines can deliver. It almost makes you forgive the electric steering.
Look I dislike the F generation, it's the false prophet. Then again it's an E9X forum what's to be expected?
A good analogy would be for us to go to Saudi Arabia and argue in favor of Christianity...not gonna end well.
Glad you're getting back into an E92...at current price levels it's clearly the superior choice!