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      04-10-2008, 01:29 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
Other than my lack of respect for Gustav, what is it about my M3 comments that offend you? Did I say that the 911S was faster?

I have a lot of respect for Gustav and his efforts at putting these events together. I hate when people who challenge these videos offer nothing but innuendo and other BS that these vids are somehow crooked or staged with absolutely no basis.

That is what offends me.

I am just an anti-body attacking the Passive-Aggressive virus that chickenshits spread. Now that you out and have stated your position clearly, it is much easier to debate.

I will not debate the merits of Gustav's videos but I will let members who have participate do this.... I look forward to you telling these people they are part of a grand consipiracy....it should be fun.
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      04-10-2008, 01:35 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
I have a lot of respect for Gustav and his efforts at putting these events together. I hate when people who challenge these videos offer nothing but innuendo and other BS that these vids are somehow crooked or staged with absolutely no basis.

That is what offends me.

I am just an anti-body attacking the Passive-Aggressive virus that chickenshits spread. Now that you out and have stated your position clearly, it is much easier to debate.

I will not debate the merits of Gustav's videos but I will let members who have participate do this.... I look forward to you telling these people they are part of a grand consipiracy....it should be fun.
The great and almighty T bone-head has spoken. Let the games begin.
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      04-10-2008, 01:48 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by devo View Post
The great and almighty T bone-head has spoken. Let the games begin.

That's a great retort with no substance. Fact is, you drop hints and innuendo and attack someone's credibility with no basis.

Why don't come back hit us with some facts or perhaps your own videos? Or continue to sit in your armchair and tell others that it is a hoax, it is a sham, it is a fix.

Are you pissed because I am calling your bluff?
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      04-10-2008, 02:06 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by devo View Post
The great and almighty T bone-head has spoken. Let the games begin.
My buddy has a 335 coupe with V2 and pulled about 3-4 cars on his dad's 997 Carrera S. So why is it surprising that the M3 pulled the 997CS like that? and the 335 Ve and new M3 should be about even up to 120mph
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      04-10-2008, 02:39 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
This might make me fall out of favour with some other members but I couldn't agree more this your comments, I have watched the RS4 being beaten by cars which are nothing more than equals, the M5 and M6 defeating things which should clear win with ease and this too seem to be another occasion when the result differs from what should be expected.

Until this event loses it's BMW status it will always be seen as favoring the Munich brand.
Maybe this will help your naive mind to accept the facts. Your really think a 420 hp M3 does not beat a 355 hp 911 S in a straight line? Come on.



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      04-10-2008, 02:41 PM   #50
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My believe is the 997 C2S is caught in the wrong gear. AFAIK, the C2S runs the E92 M3 very close up to 100mph. The M3 has an advantage at higher speed due to an additional 65hp.

The test was a rolling start from 50-260km/h. It is not surprising if the M3 starts pulling away beyond 160km/h. But for it to jump ahead from 50km/h is a little suspicious.

The comparison in this link http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=458be6dc37c65 is simply a guide. Now where is the thread with all the test results from various magazines compiled by South?
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      04-10-2008, 04:21 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL-Fanatik View Post
Maybe this will help your naive mind to accept the facts. Your really think a 420 hp M3 does not beat a 355 hp 911 S in a straight line? Come on.



CSL
I am not going to take the bate with this insult of 'naive mind' because there has been too many arguments of late. Lets just answer that facts on the two cars.

Your youtube video as evidence is no better than any other, reasons are simple, it's unknown as to whether this 997Cab is a manual or tiptronic and the difference in performance is vast, 1 whole seconds slower to 100mph for a start, secondly there is a difference in performance between a Coupe and a Cab which was why this whole debate and discussion arise from so best to look at the fact in hand.

Here's some figures to look over.

0 ~ 60mph time:Porsche 997S: 3.9s (R&T) *editorial-outlier
BMW E92 M3: 4.1s (C&D)

0 ~ 100 mph time:
BMW E92 M3: 9.4s (R&T)
Porsche 997S: 9.6s (R&T)

0 ~ 1000m time:BMW E92 M3: 22.8s (AUTO-Italian Mag.)
997S: 23.4s (AutoCar)
BMW E92 M3: 23.3s (BMW?)

1/4 mile time and speed:
Porsche 997S: 12.3s @ 114.8 mph (R&T)
BMW E92 M3: 12.5s @ 114.8 mph (R&T)

You might be familiar which the list of figures I have compiled for you as they come from this very site and they are the best reported times at each discipline for each car.

Now the video originally add by T-Bone was from the M5Board event which usually are conducted by rolling starts but if not I include the 0-60mph times to show how even these cars are. Secondly it's at an airfield so we know they get up to 150mph plus, this is where the 1000m times become interesting as in the above figures I have included the two M3 times and the sole 997S time (Autocar achieved a similar time to the Porsche in their M3 review), for these times both cars will be well on the way to 145mph or more and to me there isn't that great of a difference between them. In one the M3 has a comfortable lead but in the other it's only 0.1s ahead.

I also threw in the 1/4 times just to show how even their are as both were achieved by the same guys at the same place, using the same equipment.

Now one is doubting the possibility that the M3 wouldn't come out on top, only the gap that was achieved in this video which is out of character with what we know about the two cars, please mate, keep a more open mind about things you see in a video and trust me I am to old at this game to be classed as naive.
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      04-10-2008, 04:47 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I am not going to take the bate with this insult of 'naive mind' because there has been too many arguments of late. Lets just answer that facts on the two cars.

Your youtube video as evidence is no better than any other, reasons are simple, it's unknown as to whether this 997Cab is a manual or tiptronic and the difference in performance is vast, 1 whole seconds slower to 100mph for a start, secondly there is a difference in performance between a Coupe and a Cab which was why this whole debate and discussion arise from so best to look at the fact in hand.

Here's some figures to look over.

0 ~ 60mph time:Porsche 997S: 3.9s (R&T) *editorial-outlier
BMW E92 M3: 4.1s (C&D)

0 ~ 100 mph time:
BMW E92 M3: 9.4s (R&T)
Porsche 997S: 9.6s (R&T)

0 ~ 1000m time:BMW E92 M3: 22.8s (AUTO-Italian Mag.)
997S: 23.4s (AutoCar)
BMW E92 M3: 23.3s (BMW?)

1/4 mile time and speed:
Porsche 997S: 12.3s @ 114.8 mph (R&T)
BMW E92 M3: 12.5s @ 114.8 mph (R&T)

You might be familiar which the list of figures I have compiled for you as they come from this very site and they are the best reported times at each discipline for each car.

Now the video originally add by T-Bone was from the M5Board event which usually are conducted by rolling starts but if not I include the 0-60mph times to show how even these cars are. Secondly it's at an airfield so we know they get up to 150mph plus, this is where the 1000m times become interesting as in the above figures I have included the two M3 times and the sole 997S time (Autocar achieved a similar time to the Porsche in their M3 review), for these times both cars will be well on the way to 145mph or more and to me there isn't that great of a difference between them. In one the M3 has a comfortable lead but in the other it's only 0.1s ahead.

I also threw in the 1/4 times just to show how even their are as both were achieved by the same guys at the same place, using the same equipment.

Now one is doubting the possibility that the M3 wouldn't come out on top, only the gap that was achieved in this video which is out of character with what we know about the two cars, please mate, keep a more open mind about things you see in a video and trust me I am to old at this game to be classed as naive.
Magazine racing at it's best!

There is no way in hell the 997CS traps almost 115mph (those are C6 numbers that has same weight and 70hp more).
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      04-10-2008, 05:26 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by SteelTorque View Post
Magazine racing at it's best!

There is no way in hell the 997CS traps almost 115mph (those are C6 numbers that has same weight and 70hp more).
That's the benefit of extra traction from all that weight over the driven wheels. Now who's acting a little naive.
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      04-10-2008, 06:26 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
That's the benefit of extra traction from all that weight over the driven wheels. Now who's acting a little naive.
Yes, magazine racing is the way to go. Not real life, but magazine racing. There are 2 videos already posted where the 997CS loses to the M3, but yet you come here and post magazine racing that use corrections.
You don't have an M3 or a 997CS, you haven't raced one, but yet somehow you KNOW that the M3 shouldn't be as fast as the 997CS.

Sometimes I really wonder if your're not just a troll from Audi, because everything you say is somehow against BMW. We'll be just fine without you're "awesome" imputs....really...
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      04-11-2008, 04:50 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelTorque View Post
You don't have an M3 or a 997CS, you haven't raced one, but yet somehow you KNOW that the M3 shouldn't be as fast as the 997CS.

Sometimes I really wonder if your're not just a troll from Audi, because everything you say is somehow against BMW. We'll be just fine without you're "awesome" imputs....really...
Explain to me how you missed my comments like

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie
Now one is doubting the possibility that the M3 wouldn't come out on top, only the gap that was achieved in this video which is out of character with what we know about the two cars
Please open your eyes as well as your mind. The difference is I have own both brands including Audi and a few more so I have a little bit better of judgement than yourself on this. I don't class myself as a fanboy to one brand which may be the problem when trying to talk some sense into someone who clearly is.

Unlike you I have an M3 on order so my input into things bears more meaning than yours does. So unless you are always singing it's praises than you are classed as negative.

Sad really.
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      04-11-2008, 04:55 AM   #56
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I think some magazine shold come out with a comparo between the new M3 and 997 S
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      04-11-2008, 05:01 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by OBI_agent View Post
I think some magazine shold come out with a comparo between the new M3 and 997 S
More than likely Autocar will run one as they did with the last M3 vs 911 but because the new Porsche is so near I reckon you might have to wait until it arrives.
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      04-11-2008, 08:47 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
That's a great retort with no substance. Fact is, you drop hints and innuendo and attack someone's credibility with no basis.

Why don't come back hit us with some facts or perhaps your own videos? Or continue to sit in your armchair and tell others that it is a hoax, it is a sham, it is a fix.

Are you pissed because I am calling your bluff?
I never called this video a hoax. I have no doubt that the M won. It is the distance by which the M won that makes the vid supect to me.

My opinion is that Gustav is pro BMW and will exploit that whenever possible. If you are offended by my beliefs that is your problem.
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      04-11-2008, 09:45 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
I never called this video a hoax. I have no doubt that the M won. It is the distance by which the M won that makes the vid supect to me.

My opinion is that Gustav is pro BMW and will exploit that whenever possible. If you are offended by my beliefs that is your problem.

You are still sitting on the fence like a liberal. Please articulate whether you believe Gustav's videos are accurate or bullshit. There is no middleground.
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      04-11-2008, 09:57 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
You are still sitting on the fence like a liberal. Please articulate whether you believe Gustav's videos are accurate or bullshit. There is no middleground.
I can't speak for devo, that's something only he can answer. But I don't agree with this race in particular and I have driven both cars and know things a too close to call. Every review or independent test conducted on each shows this to be the case.

If you were to agree that either that particular Porsche was a poor example of the breed or it was driven even worse then I would openly agree that this was what happened, but if you believe that an M3 can walk away from a 997S this easily then TB you are smoking some illegal shit.
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      04-11-2008, 10:47 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I can't speak for devo, that's something only he can answer. But I don't agree with this race in particular and I have driven both cars and know things a too close to call. Every review or independent test conducted on each shows this to be the case.

If you were to agree that either that particular Porsche was a poor example of the breed or it was driven even worse then I would openly agree that this was what happened, but if you believe that an M3 can walk away from a 997S this easily then TB you are smoking some illegal shit.
Footie,

first of all, I am not sure what I was thinking, but I want to apologize for my comment about a naive mind. I have given some of your posts some thought, and I can see where you are coming from. The M3 owned the 911S in the video, surely, you should be more than entitled to voice your suspicion. And the more I think about it, maybe you are right. I will not back down in my opinion that the M3 is faster in a straight line, to me, that could almost be classified as fact. But the distance is arguable. As we can see in the video, the start has been cut off, so we do not know which car began accelerating earlier at the rolling start. Also, we do not know anything about the shifting abilities of the driver.

But your comment that all the M5Board.com videos are false representations of reality (always pro BMW) is just as unfair. I am sure the 911S driver owns the car, so how would he purposely lose to make BMWs look better.

Agreed, that the distance between the cars may be argued, and perhaps we will never know for sure. But the M3 being faster in a straight line... there is no doubt in my mind.

Best regards,

CSL
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      04-11-2008, 10:48 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OBI_agent View Post
I think some magazine shold come out with a comparo between the new M3 and 997 S
There is already a very comprehensive list of performance figures by various magazines (Sport Auto, C&D, AutoCar, R&T etc) on the E92 M3 compared to its competitors (including 997 C2S) in this forum compiled by South. If I didn't remember wrongly, the M3 and C2S are virtually inseparable up to 160km/h and the M3 only pulls out a slight lead by 200km/h. From 0-1000m, the M3 has the edge.

I would say these numbers are more representative of the relative performance between the 2 cars than a single run by those guys at M5 Board.
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      04-11-2008, 11:20 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by CSL-Fanatik View Post
Footie,

first of all, I am not sure what I was thinking, but I want to apologize for my comment about a naive mind. I have given some of your posts some thought, and I can see where you are coming from. The M3 owned the 911S in the video, surely, you should be more than entitled to voice your suspicion. And the more I think about it, maybe you are right. I will not back down in my opinion that the M3 is faster in a straight line, to me, that could almost be classified as fact. But the distance is arguable. As we can see in the video, the start has been cut off, so we do not know which car began accelerating earlier at the rolling start. Also, we do not know anything about the shifting abilities of the driver.

But your comment that all the M5Board.com videos are false representations of reality (always pro BMW) is just as unfair. I am sure the 911S driver owns the car, so how would he purposely lose to make BMWs look better.

Agreed, that the distance between the cars may be argued, and perhaps we will never know for sure. But the M3 being faster in a straight line... there is no doubt in my mind.

Best regards,

CSL
Thanks for those comments as they are appreciated and true, I am not here to troll and always try to be objective in all the things I write about. Like I said I have quite a bit of experience of Porsche products, especially the more recent ones so when I say this video is not representative of the cars performance.

I agree that some of my comments on the M5Board videos is uncalled for but at those times my comments are in the heat of an argument so I might be smarting at the time. I still believe that until it distances itself from the M5 site it will also get these remarks. Imagine if Audiworld run a similar event and Audis seemed to win almost all it's races would similar comments not be made towards the validity of the results.

Always bear this in mind when arguing your point.
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      04-11-2008, 11:25 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
You are still sitting on the fence like a liberal. Please articulate whether you believe Gustav's videos are accurate or bullshit. There is no middleground.
You are entitled to your opinion of me.

I will say that there are no absolutes in life. Some of Gustav's product appear valid and some appear suspect. I do not have proof of any inaccuracies, but that does not mean they are valid. SOME OF THEM APPEAR LESS THAN CREDIBLE. If I had proof, I would clearly and proudly state it. However, just because I do not does not mean that I nor any one else with clear vision can not be skeptical. I am not the first to voice this opinion of Gustav.

Besides, where is the gain for me? I believe the M to be faster in certain venues and may end up buying one. I am okay with the M being faster even if I do not buy one.

The aforementioned post by Dechoong, lends a reason to why I feel the way I do.

There is a middle ground. I believe that this is one video that appears to be a misrepresentation that is not supported by other numerous data. (Sometimes, if it smells like fish, it is.)
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      04-11-2008, 11:33 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I can't speak for devo, that's something only he can answer. But I don't agree with this race in particular and I have driven both cars and know things a too close to call. Every review or independent test conducted on each shows this to be the case.

If you were to agree that either that particular Porsche was a poor example of the breed or it was driven even worse then I would openly agree that this was what happened, but if you believe that an M3 can walk away from a 997S this easily then TB you are smoking some illegal shit.
I agree with this 100%. Maybe I have not expressed my opinions well enough to satisfy T Bone, but the distance by which the M beats the 911 appears to be the result of either poor/strong examples or poor/strong driving abilities or less than credible recording.
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      04-11-2008, 11:37 AM   #66
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The extensive list of published performance figures were compiled by several members of this forum, and they can be found at:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...rmance+figures

Just go to the last page for the most recently updated list.

There are several data points for the 911S and the M3 from different sources on that list. The differences between those data points are not congruent with the kind of ass kicking seen in the video. For that reason, I am surprised as well.

A number of things could have gone wrong for the 911S. The most likely difference is driver error. Someone correct me if I am wrong; my understanding is that owners drive their own cars. If that is the case, there is no standard for keeping that variable in check. A mis-shift or a poor response off the line could make a significant difference.

Since the run is not repeated, it really doesn't make too much sense to arrive at conclusions regarding the relative straight line performances of these two cars based on a single clip (and again, the clip seems to be missing the rolling start).

I personally doubt that the organizers of the event have any reason or mechanism for influencing the outcomes. I guess if they really cared, for cars that they would like to see lose, they could invite drivers who are known to be slow, but that seems highly unlikely. If they want to turn this into a business, it would be in their best interest to maintain their objectivity.
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