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07-25-2014, 05:27 AM | #265 | |
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Hi Bradley. Thanks for the reply, I am hoping to find someone reputable here to try and diagnose this issue properly, so gonna take your advice on that.
Just to be clear, the example that I posted that you replied to was the "worst case" I have heard of this noise (on my car). Its usually quite a bit shorter and quieter. Matches 100% with the other reports of this issue. View post 1 of this thread, the other 2 examples there are an identical match to what others are reporting. Back home from vacation have most of august to deal with this before I leave for business so hopefully over the next couple of weeks will have a solution. Quote:
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07-25-2014, 10:55 AM | #266 | |
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Lifter knock (if that's what it is), in itself, isn't the worst thing in the world, but it's indicative of deeper issues. Plain bearings (the type found in the crank, rods, wrist pins, cam journals, etc) require adequate oil pressure, or abrasion will occur (literally metal-on-metal). If that sound is actually lifter knock, it means that there is insufficient oil pressure required to pressurize the hydraulic lifters. Insufficient lifter pressure rarely happens in isolation. I'd have a really close look at oil pressures during startup. Make sure that the equipment used to monitor pressure is responsive enough to register momentary dips in pressure. Also make sure that they check oil pressure at different locations (if possible). You may have an oil passage blockage in a location that won't register at the sending unit for the factory monitoring location. I'm not all that familiar with the S65, so I don't know what options are available for pressure taps. Some engines are very limited, and just about all engines require removal of an expansion plug or even drilling out a pressed-bearing and tapping a passageway to attach the equipment. A lot of techs won't even be aware that it's possible (if it even is). They'll simply monitor the factoring sending unit, which is right by the pump. In most engines, this monitoring location is intended to tell you two things: 1) That the pump is generating pressure. 2) That the back pressure in the system is at appropriate levels. The 1st goes when the oil pump fails. The 2nd goes when you have a worn engine (e.g., too my oil bypass at the mains). It doesn't tell you if you have a blockage somewhere in an oil passage that is preventing adequate lubrication to some part of your engine. Unfortunately, most people find out they had a blocked oil passage after an engine failure. Blocked oil passages are extremely rare, and very difficult to diagnose. Sometimes it's simply not possible to find them, because of inadequate locations to monitor oil pressure. Troubleshooting is hard. Technicians have a bad tendency to operate only within their area of knowledge. Basically, most are blind to the things that they haven't seen before. I expect you're going to have to push someone to get to the bottom of this.
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07-25-2014, 11:03 AM | #267 | |
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I'm not a mechanic by trade, but I've rebuilt entire engines, tearing them down to the engine block. I've even rebuilt a transmission before, which is a fucking nightmare btw. I'm not trying to make myself out to be some kind of expert, I'm not, but I have a feeling that a lot of people in this thread lack even a basic understanding of how engines work. You've got to be really careful whose advice you take on the internet. Just because two things sound similar to a layman, doesn't mean they are related. It's like when someone says "the internet is down". The internet is not actually down, but from a layman's perspective, they can't access any websites, so to them "it's down". The truth is that there is some detailed thing wrong, that only a person with the appropriate insight in to the operation of computer networks can even see, because they know where to look. There's a lot of "the internet is down" going on in this thread.
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07-25-2014, 12:59 PM | #268 |
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The way forward is to find out what happens in the first few seconds when the engine is started. The fact that there is no noise for the first one or two seconds almost certainly discounts a lack oil pressure as the cause.
I think that the start procedure is very similar to the one used by the E46 M3. The VANOS is in the default position for start up, the engine cranks and fires and after two or three seconds the ECU take over control of the VANOS and makes an adjustment. At that instant a noise is produced in some cars by that action of the ECU - understanding what that action is should point to a fix. |
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07-25-2014, 05:07 PM | #269 |
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The issue could still be low oil pressure in combination with some other event or condition that does not occur until some time has elapsed.
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07-25-2014, 11:47 PM | #270 | |
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agreed.
as you said in the previous post, the next step is to have someone who REALLY knows what they are doing look at it. unfortunately for me, that means about 100KM from where i am located... including leaving the car there for at least 1 night :/ Quote:
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07-25-2014, 11:51 PM | #271 | |
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your insight into the vanos cold start procedure is the best idea so far.
i know the E46 and E92 vanos differ very much (high pressure vs low pressure etc etc), but i would not be surprised in the slightest if the E92 vanos retained some of the properties of the high pressure vanos... like the cold start procedure... Quote:
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07-25-2014, 11:57 PM | #272 |
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i have mentioned this previously in some replies, but thought i would throw it in:
there is no doubt in my case this is somehow related to the oil system. after switching over to 0w40 the noise is much different. a) quicker and quieter, every time. in the last 15+ cold starts, i have yet to have it 'really bad'. i know 'really bad' is subjective, but there has been a clear and definite improvement over what it was like before. b) the noise 'doesn't happen' quite a bit more frequently now. c) the car can sit for a bit longer and not exhibit this noise. |
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07-26-2014, 03:23 AM | #273 | |
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So it would seem likely that some component of the VANOS in your car has worn to an extent that it produces the noise. Its not out of the question that using an oil with a lower viscosity will affect the way the VANOS functions to some degree. The VANOS is driven by the oil pressure from the main oil pump which is a constant flow type with a pressure relief valve. At normal operating temps the oil flow rate will be the same whether you use 0W40 or 10W60 (the oil pressure created by both oils being lower than the pressure relief setting) however in a cold start the flow rate will be higher for a 0W40 than the 10W60 as the thicker oil will hit the pressure relief setting before the thinner oil....although I don't know what the effect of that would be on the VANOS. IIRC the ECU for the E9x M3 is produced by the same company as the one for the E46 M3. I think it is normal that some software would be carried over and the cold start procedure is likely to be one of them. As I noted the E46 M3s ECU does not look at the VANOS until two seconds after the engine has fired so it would be a massive coincidence that the noise heard in the E9x M3 just happens to occur at a couple of seconds after the engine fired if it wasn't a function of the same start procedure. |
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07-26-2014, 10:21 AM | #274 | |
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0W-40 The "0W" part is how the oil flows when it's cold. An oil rated at "0w" flows like a straight 0 weight oil at operating temperature. The "40" part means the oil flows like 40 weight at operating temperature. The lighter weight oil flows more freely past orifices in the engine that maintain oil pressure in the various systems. This is a dual-edged sword. Oil that flows more freely will result in a lower oil pressure when run through the same engine. However, this isn't always a bad thing when talking about the low-temp rating of an oil, because the oil already flow so much thicker when cold. It sounds as if the effect in your engine is that the free flowing oil is able to flow in to whatever systems are causing the knock more quickly, which prevents the clacking altogether.
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07-26-2014, 10:44 AM | #275 | |
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07-26-2014, 10:45 AM | #276 | |
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07-28-2014, 10:31 AM | #277 |
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Does anyone know if there is an "S65 Engine Technical Docs" document like the one for the S55 found here: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1015603
That doc has a very detailed view of the oil passages and a listing of the components. That would be tremendously beneficial for anyone trying to diagnose this issue. I mean, look at this:
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07-28-2014, 11:27 AM | #278 |
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07-30-2014, 06:54 AM | #279 |
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Car never had this problem and the car has been on 0w-40 for months. Now have exact problem reported by OP. These are the events that took place and led up to it.
1. oil changed same (0w-40). Did not notice an issue and nothing special about this oil change than any other). 2. changed sparks plugs and forgot to connect one coil before starting car. 3. started car and saw a weird engine light and reduced power mode, car shutoff. 4. checked the spark plugs and found that disconnected coil and connected the coil. 5. restarted the car and all was fine. No more reduced engine noise, no new weird sounds. Restarted a few more times and easy driving all was well. 6. Next morning start car and witnessed the exact noise reported by the OP (exact noise) Observed the problem occurs after the car has been sitting (4 is enough to cause it and maybe less). I hope there was no internal damage but something is now screwed up. |
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07-30-2014, 03:58 PM | #280 | |
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Built year ? And how many miles on it ? When you take the car out for about 100 Miles... the next morning when you start is there also the clunk noise ?
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07-30-2014, 06:11 PM | #281 |
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Build July 2008.
6mt Haven't done 100 miles in one shot. Problem started two days ago. 96K miles. What's most relevant is that it was likely caused by the premature startup with one coil unplugged. |
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07-30-2014, 06:39 PM | #282 | |
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I have the clunk noise only when it sits for 5-6 days in my garage ,and only on first cold start ,when daily driven i've no clunk noise , when i take her out for 100-150 Miles the clunk noise is gone ,but when i don't drive for a week ...first cold start clunk noise is back . You have 6MT so the brake procedure will not work ,it's only working for DCT cars . About your coil unplugged...personal i'm thinking that's not the reason for the clunk noise . My question is...before your oil change , how long was your car "not started" ? By experience i know when not daily driven...we can get the clunk noise,but only on first start of the day when engine is cold .
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07-31-2014, 01:52 AM | #283 |
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just fyi, if this did start right after u started up without one coil... its most likely not software related...
i have upgraded my ECU and cleared my adaptations multiple times, and the noise was always there... so by the sounds of it, something physical happened in your motor im no expert, maybe someone else can chime in on what happens when the car is started without one coil? curious to know how that ties in with everything. |
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07-31-2014, 03:14 AM | #285 |
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07-31-2014, 03:15 AM | #286 | |
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if possible, i would try switching back to your old spark plugs and seeing if the noise disappears.
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