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09-10-2012, 09:34 PM | #24 | |
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Feel free to break down the two 625 you know best sold as is. As for the link I sent you those kits are made by the same company and rated for crank hp by the same company. They were dyno'd the same day all with different results. My point is all of the power in the curves are anything but similar. |
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09-10-2012, 09:40 PM | #25 | |
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1. you compress air 2. air passes through to cooler 3. air passes through cooler 4. compressed air is delivered into manifold 5. pressure measured at manifold is what it is Let me know if I am missing something and lastly what do you want me to breakdown? |
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09-10-2012, 09:44 PM | #26 |
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Nice Omar, always enjoy your post. Keep it up.
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09-10-2012, 09:55 PM | #27 |
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I don't think there is a need to drag this on any longer, we both know it won't get us anywhere.
A 625 vs 625 showdown sounds like the only way to know for sure Have a good one! |
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09-10-2012, 10:00 PM | #28 | |
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I get it trust me I get it but please don't start a discussion you can't finish. Anyways thanks for your input. |
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09-10-2012, 10:24 PM | #29 |
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Personally I think everyone is tired of hearing the stats and the numbers behind most of these kits.
You owned an Active kit and had these same kind of meaningless discussions with Roman if you recall. See Below: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=535278&page=5 Please don't make your next thread about how much better air to water intercoolers are now. My motto... run your car not your mouth. We are waiting... |
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09-10-2012, 10:41 PM | #30 | |
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Not sure how this became another "vs" thread but if you want to discuss these kits in detail before or after you find your "street race" let me know. Out of shear curiosity from a business standpoint if you lose to one of these cars that make more power than any car you have ever put a SC on what happens then?! Best Regards, |
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09-10-2012, 10:45 PM | #31 | |
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And if the company you sell for beats us ? We build it stronger of course ! |
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09-10-2012, 11:19 PM | #32 | |
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In that case you are ahead of the game since you are already doing that |
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09-11-2012, 09:11 AM | #33 | |
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I leave feeling more confused than ever since every post he writes contradicts itself. The gray car in the Velos banner has an Active charger on it and still does.. Cant be that bad right? |
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09-11-2012, 09:17 AM | #34 | |
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Ummm im speechless. Continue wise one. |
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09-11-2012, 09:18 AM | #35 |
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Great post and I think the start of a very valuable discussion and learning opportunity.
Omar, would you be able to elaborate on what ESS Tuning does to try and assure consistent performance in demanding conditions? I'm not sure if it's appropriate to ask, but would it be possible to educate us on their design theory of intake manifold, water-air charge cooler, tune, etc? Understandable if ESS doesn't want to share certain design philosophies, I just thought it may be worth knowing differences and why certain kits have their advantages/disadvantages. Thanks Omar!
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09-11-2012, 09:29 AM | #36 |
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Myth.... power under the curve is great but a little research will show you that most kits on the market will make similar torque because of the behavior of the motor. The biggest difference will be the peak horsepower... if the blower on the car is out of air you can either lower the redline so the drop off in power isn't as big or it will just fall of.. When the blower is done you can ask for all the boost in the world but if the blower isnt capable of it then it simply will not make the power... Others ways to make up for an inadequate blower is via ignition timing which is obviously not recommended and can lead to engine failures....
This is totally false sorry for making a discussion. |
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09-11-2012, 10:02 AM | #37 | ||
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Last edited by Omar@VelosDesignwerks; 09-11-2012 at 10:28 AM.. |
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09-11-2012, 10:27 AM | #38 | |||
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Thanks for the question and I don't think it's inappropriate to ask any question here. I will answer your questions below as best as I can. Quote:
On an air to air system the size of the intercoolers needed would require you block off air flow to the factory radiators which are already for the most part. Then when you try to avoid blocking air flow to the factory radiator a large part of the intercooler will hide be stuck behind the factory bumper :-/ . When running a front mount intercooler the idea is to get as much cool air ramming into it as possible, without this it defeats the purpose. Hmm... The air to water system as designed by ESS also required less install time making it more attractive to the consumer. This is all without getting into the choice of the blower ESS used, the injector size, and other small things the consumer never really considers. Quote:
As far as their tuning is concerned no need to get into that at this point. Lets concentrate on the hardware of these kits first. Let me know if you have any other questions and thanks again. |
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09-11-2012, 10:48 AM | #39 | |
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I won't argue with you here.. If the customer is looking for 700 crank you are correct. But most users will never get to this level. |
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09-11-2012, 10:57 AM | #40 |
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Different superchargers will have different compressor maps and air flow at any given supercharger RPM. The aim is to match the engine RPM to the best supercharger rpm across the entire RPM range. Some companies may choose to lower the engine RPM but increase the supercharger rpm by use of gearing (pulley size). The desired effect will give a different shape of power output with respect to RPM.
Example - Take a Vortech V3Si and match 52000rpm (max recommended limit) to 8300rpm on the E9x M3. You will get a given power output through the rpm band. Now, reduce the pulley size. You will make more boost (and very most likely more power!) through the rpm range but the supercharger will be over spun if the 8300rpm limit of the engine is maintained. So the engine rpm is lowered and the effect will be more power output through the rpm range but with a lower rpm limit due to increased boost levels earlier. There are multiple reasons why RPM limits can be changed on an engine. All depends what the designers philosophy is and what he thinks the end user would like. Some end users demand for more low end torque/HP. A supercharger kit changed in the example above is ideal for them as long as the engine can make use of the increased boost at the lower RPM's. In most cases most engines can including the S65. On the subject of pushing to the limits. Some superchargers are designed to be run at the maximum engine RPM. The run most efficiently at this point as they go through the most desirable compressor map. Running a supercharger outside of it's efficiency range by over speeding it is a recipe for disaster however! Not recommended. Then you need a bigger blower! Back on topic. Nice thread, thanks for the dyno graphs with conditions! Uncorrected graphs would top if off real nice too. Last edited by Sales@Evolve; 09-11-2012 at 11:19 AM.. |
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09-11-2012, 06:03 PM | #41 | |
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60-130's are also real world where it matters. *Here's the roll car for non built motors: *6.16 (ESS), 6.56 (VF), 6.78 Mike Wads ESS, 6.80 Drew ESS. *I've never seen any AA results because nobody will post them (usually a sign). *Last night I hit five consecutive runs just at 7.0s in +500 DA and will post them later. |
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09-11-2012, 06:05 PM | #42 | |
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09-11-2012, 06:24 PM | #43 | |
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He can create a new thread calling out an ESS car in Miami... |
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