"Best" setup + tips for stock brakes

[M3MATT]

Hello,
I’m wondering if anyone has had any decent success with stock brakes in our cars, because I think they’re truly horrendous haha

I’ve ran DTC-70’s and PFC-08’s to no success. Running stock rotors (FCP warranty) with SS lines and Castrol SRF. But after 2 hot(ish) laps the brakes are cooked. Car is stock interior/weight.

Has anyone had success with upgraded guide pins, cooking ducts with the Gt4 lip, or any other tweaks?

Seems like AP is the solution here.

[Ximian]

Ran PFC 08 pads front and rear along with Motul RBF660 with no significant issues. Plenty of other people can report the same.

What track? Because two laps anywhere before you notice a braking performance decrease sounds like something isn't working properly. You you might have air in your brake lines and the way to clear it up is a DSC bleed with ISTA.

[M3MATT]

Originally Posted by Ximian

Ran PFC 08 pads front and rear along with Motul RBF660 with no significant issues. Plenty of other people can report the same.

What track? Because two laps anywhere before you notice a braking performance decrease sounds like something isn't working properly. You you might have air in your brake lines and the way to clear it up is a DSC bleed with ISTA.

Was running VIR w/ full interior, so going from 150-40 on the back straight, and 130-40 on the front!

Was running PFC 08’s for that event and Bled with RBF660 for that event which I wasn’t a fan of- going back to SRF + DTC-70

[amg6975]

Let me guess, MDM mode on? I'm not going to tell you to run with DSC fully off but I bet that would solve your problem.

You can also try Girodisc rotors, and cut up/remove your dust shields. The stock rotors are pretty bad at dissipating heat and are really the only part of the system that's not up to really heavy track abuse.

[tdott]

I think the brakes being "cooked" is in your head.

Unless you start getting a soft pedal/fluid boil, which shouldn't happen with SRF.

Brake ducting should help. Definitely can't hurt.

You can try to find some DTC80 which aren't suppose to drop off at the high end of the heat range as much as 70s do.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by tdott

I think the brakes being "cooked" is in your head.

Unless you start getting a soft pedal/fluid boil, which shouldn't happen with SRF.

Brake ducting should help. Definitely can't hurt.

You can try to find some DTC80 which aren't suppose to drop off at the high end of the heat range as much as 70s do.

DTC80 can easily exceed the grip from street tires causing the tires to rotate on the rim and cause excessive ABS use. It’ll overpower stock suspension setups in the braking zone and trail-bracking into a corner. My guess is the OP is over-using the brake system which results in really high brake pad-rotor temps. Late braking and getting off the brake pedal sooner is easier on the brake pads and rotors. Stepping up to the f8x blue brake setup is a nice step up in performance for a reasonable price (especially if adding RB steel domed pistons and placing titanium shims between caliper and pad). It’ll be a while before you outgrow this brake setup.

[omgzirra_exe]

My go-to street/track setup has always been 200-240 TW tires paired with Pagid RS29, SRF/RBF660/Endless RF-650 (I don't really use SRF anymore; I usually just use RBF660 now or RF-650, whatever I have in stock).

The RS29 are on the more expensive side of things, but they are by far my favorite compound for a "street/track" setup. I pretty much just run these 24/7 and don't swap them after a track day since I'm lazy. I only had to replace my pads once a year when I had the OEM setup. I did three track days a year, and most of my driving was to work (less than 20 miles combined) and one "spirited" drive a month (if time allowed), lol.

Also, MDM off will save your pads/rotors.

Girodisc 2pc rotors up front will also save you money over time, unless you want to cough up money for a BBK...

[M3MATT]

Originally Posted by amg6975

Let me guess, MDM mode on? I'm not going to tell you to run with DSC fully off but I bet that would solve your problem.

You can also try Girodisc rotors, and cut up/remove your dust shields. The stock rotors are pretty bad at dissipating heat and are really the only part of the system that's not up to really heavy track abuse.

Haha dsc off!!!

[M3MATT]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

DTC80 can easily exceed the grip from street tires causing the tires to rotate on the rim and cause excessive ABS use. It’ll overpower stock suspension setups in the braking zone and trail-bracking into a corner. My guess is the OP is over-using the brake system which results in really high brake pad-rotor temps. Late braking and getting off the brake pedal sooner is easier on the brake pads and rotors. Stepping up to the f8x blue brake setup is a nice step up in performance for a reasonable price (especially if adding RB steel domed pistons and placing titanium shims between caliper and pad). It’ll be a while before you outgrow this brake setup.

Running fully spherical/geo corrected setup on 200tw’s (700lb f, 1000lb r springs), going to dip my toes into slicks later this season.

[amg6975]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

DTC80 can easily exceed the grip from street tires causing the tires to rotate on the rim...

Uh, no. A lot of people claim that happens so for science we chalked a ton of different cars at Watkins Glen and not a single one moved a millimeter. Street tires, slicks, OEM wheels, aftermarket wheels, didn't matter. Tires do not rotate on the rim.

This also would have nothing to do with what the pad was, the limiting factor is the friction between the tire and pavement, not the pad and rotor.

Originally Posted by M3MATT

Haha dsc off!!!

Then go for Girodisc rotors and remove as much of your dust shields as you want. I left mine covering the ball joints and cut out all the rest. Made an incredible difference.

You can also try PFC11s, they may last longer than 08s if you're pushing hard.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by amg6975

Uh, no. A lot of people claim that happens so for science we chalked a ton of different cars at Watkins Glen and not a single one moved a millimeter. Street tires, slicks, OEM wheels, aftermarket wheels, didn't matter. Tires do not rotate on the rim.

Yes it can and that’s why knurled beads are applied where the tire bead is located. You clearly are nut pushing hard enough because it’s been a common occurrence over the 35+ years of tracking.

This also would have nothing to do with what the pad was, the limiting factor is the friction between the tire and pavement, not the pad and rotor.

Again not true. The max torque occurs early in the braking event which overcomes the tires ability to resist the applied torque. Ask any wheel maker that adds knurled beads to the wheels, what’s their purpose.

Then go for Girodisc rotors and remove as much of your dust shields as you want. I left mine covering the ball joints and cut out all the rest. Made an incredible difference.

You can also try PFC11s, they may last longer than 08s if you're pushing hard.

Girodiscs help because they have more cooling vanes and no obstructions to the cooling vanes like the floating pins and cast Aluminum mounting hat.

I solely use PFC pads and, although the 11 compound is a great progressive pads, the 13 and 39 destroy the 11s. The 05 was supposed to be replaced by the 11 but apparently the 05 is available and it’s another phenomenal pad (05, 13 and 39 not available for stock e9x M and f8x calipers.

Stepping up to the F8x with steel domed pistons, titanium shims and Girodisc, or Paragon, is a nice brake improvement without a high cost.

[MineralWhiteF80]

Originally Posted by amg6975

Uh, no. A lot of people claim that happens so for science we chalked a ton of different cars at Watkins Glen and not a single one moved a millimeter. Street tires, slicks, OEM wheels, aftermarket wheels, didn't matter. Tires do not rotate on the rim.

My tires spin on my wheels every single track day. I make a vertical white paint mark exactly in line with the valve stem before every track day, and they all move. Interestingly enough, the rears always move substantially more than the fronts.

In this picture, you can see my white paint mark in the 7 to 8 o'clock position that originally started exactly in line with the valve stem at the 3 o'clock position. This is on DTC60 front and rear OEM brakes, first gen RE71r 275mm square setup with DSC off.

[M3MATT]

Originally Posted by MineralWhiteF80

My tires spin on my wheels every single track day. I make a vertical white paint mark exactly in line with the valve stem before every track day, and they all move. Interestingly enough, the rears always move substantially more than the fronts.

In this picture, you can see my white paint mark in the 7 to 8 o'clock position that originally started exactly in line with the valve stem at the 3 o'clock position. This is on DTC60 front and rear OEM brakes, first gen RE71r 275mm square setup with DSC off.

Originally Posted by amg6975

Then go for Girodisc rotors and remove as much of your dust shields as you want. I left mine covering the ball joints and cut out all the rest. Made an incredible difference.

You can also try PFC11s, they may last longer than 08s if you're pushing hard.

I think that’s what he’s talking about, the amount of friction on the pad/rotor is much higher than the tire/ground. So it makes the brakes “too strong”. I.e. ABS goes crazy and you have little modulation

M3SQRD which PFC pads did you run on thr E9X or F8X brakes? The 11’s?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by M3MATT

I think that’s what he’s talking about, the amount of friction on the pad/rotor is much higher than the tire/ground. So it makes the brakes “too strong”. I.e. ABS goes crazy and you have little modulation

Correct. Pads with a CoF from 0.55-0.65 produce a much higher instantaneous torque that far exceeds the tire-rim capability. I’ve found tires rotating for three decades. Current high end brake compounds have a much higher CoF than pads from 30 years ago.

M3SQRD which PFC pads did you run on thr E9X or F8X brakes? The 11’s?

I’m running PFC Z54/Z45 calipers on one e92 M and PFC Z31/Z31 on the other e92 M. I’ve used 01, 03, 05, 11, 13, 15 and 39. 05, 11, 13 and 39 are my favorites. Cobalt XR1 is similar to PFC 05 and should be available for the stock calipers. This is my backup pad if I can’t get the PFC compounds I want.

[amg6975]

Originally Posted by MineralWhiteF80

My tires spin on my wheels every single track day. I make a vertical white paint mark exactly in line with the valve stem before every track day, and they all move. Interestingly enough, the rears always move substantially more than the fronts.

In this picture, you can see my white paint mark in the 7 to 8 o'clock position that originally started exactly in line with the valve stem at the 3 o'clock position. This is on DTC60 front and rear OEM brakes, first gen RE71r 275mm square setup with DSC off.

Cmon, no way. I guess I stand corrected.

Edit: It still has nothing to do with what pads you're running. So half my point still stands...

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by amg6975

Cmon, no way. I guess I stand corrected.

Edit: It still has nothing to do with what pads you're running. So half my point still stands...

Yes, the pad does have a direct effect on peak applied brake torque. The brand of tire has a greater effect than the pad compound. Race tires require much higher brake torque to rotate on the rim.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by MineralWhiteF80

My tires spin on my wheels every single track day.

are your wheels powder coated or factory coated? I don't think Volks have the Paintless Knurled Bead like the Apex forged wheels have.

I haven't had this issue with more aggressive pads and tires than you run.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by tdott

are your wheels powder coated or factory coated? I don't think Volks have the Paintless Knurled Bead like the Apex forged wheels have.

I haven't had this issue with more aggressive pads and tires than you run.

Properly knurled wheels create a huge number of “teeth” biting into the tire bead and eliminates the rotating tire issue.

[MineralWhiteF80]

Originally Posted by tdott

are your wheels powder coated or factory coated? I don't think Volks have the Paintless Knurled Bead like the Apex forged wheels have.

My Volks are the Dash White OEM original finish (not aftermarket coating). Sadly they do not have knurled beads. However tire imbalance has never been a real issue for me and I melt the wheel weights off at least one tire each time anyway, so I either let ride till the tire is dead or I just throw it back on the balancer.

I have also tried cleaning the tire mounting grease/goop off the rubber and wheel before inflating a new tire and setting the beads but I don't think it helps much. I thought the extra lubrication might be adding to the slippage.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by tdott

I don't think Volks have the Paintless Knurled Bead like the Apex forged wheels have.

Volks introduce the knurl bead into the TE37 Ultra onward in most of their new releases now.

for what it's worth TE37 started in 1996, the SL was introduced in 2010, The Ultra somewhere in 2016? and the SAGA 2021..

might have to refresh my memory on these things lol i could be off a bit on year range.

[The-Traveler]

I ran EBC blue last year and they were good but burned through them really fast on the front.

Rears are still fine.
I’m now running EBC yellows on the front and they’re even better.

Best advice would be to drop weight in the car, it makes braking better and pretty much everything else better!

I’m down around 150+ lbs with rear seat delete, lithium battery, MPE and taking everything out of the trunk. Removing rear seatbelts, etc.

Planning to add bucket seats so if you do all that, it’s like a 200lbs drop. Then run half a tank and that’s ~250lbs from full tank & stock.

[M3MATT]

Originally Posted by The-Traveler

I ran EBC blue last year and they were good but burned through them really fast on the front.

Rears are still fine.
I’m now running EBC yellows on the front and they’re even better.

Best advice would be to drop weight in the car, it makes braking better and pretty much everything else better!

I’m down around 150+ lbs with rear seat delete, lithium battery, MPE and taking everything out of the trunk. Removing rear seatbelts, etc.

Planning to add bucket seats so if you do all that, it’s like a 200lbs drop. Then run half a tank and that’s ~250lbs from full tank & stock.

Have you ran DTC-70’s? Or any other pads to compare the EBC’s to?