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08-22-2013, 06:34 AM | #89 |
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These are really great discussions. A lot of knowledgeable people here. A few of us over on the M5 side have preventively changed our rod bearings out. I did mine at 50K and had sever cavitation on the top shell. All the top shells were just starting to get into the copper. Others have been in the 80k to 100k and were way worse than mine.
My BS report only showed 8 parts pb. What I see so far is up to this point is: 1. I assume everyone used the BMW recommendation of 10W60 up to this point. We had no reason to do otherwise up to now. 2. 100% of the bearings that have been pulled, at least on the upper shell, were in bad shape. In fact we are starting to see spun bearings showing up on cars approaching 100k regularly. 3. No one has pulled a set out that has not been bad. I know there should be some wear but to me these are accelerated. Over on the M5 board there is a guy in Germany that frequents our forum. He has been ringing the alarm bell on these S85 bearings as he changes them every week as a side business. He's got it down to a science. Last edited by B767capt; 08-22-2013 at 09:03 AM.. |
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08-22-2013, 07:01 AM | #90 |
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Instead of looking at failure rates lets look at rate of bad bearing inspections. You dont want to run the engine till a rod kicks out the oil pan, right. I have yet to see ANY bearings come out from people that have actually had the pan off that looked satisfactory. From what a few of us that know what we are looking at will tell everyone every rod bearing that has been changed is on its way out due to oil starvation. Every bearing looks the same.
Although cold start is only around 2% or so of the total running time remember that 90% of all wear comes from that 2%. In terms of oil temp, 210 is not hot, every single car on the road that uses a 195 thermostat runs at least 210-220 on the oil. The only way it can run cooler is to have a external oil cooler of which most cars do not have. The cars on track that run 250 on the oil, that is fine too. Oils are so good now that 300+ is when you want to start watching pressure data. The 0-40 is one of the highest quality oil you can buy. If the weight does not work for a certain situation then that is fine but for the porsche guys to say it is lower quality than something else is a false statement. The 5-50's on the market fall back to a 40 rather quick anyway just as the tws falls to a 40 over its life. I have tested some bottles of tws when it tests brand new at a 50 and not a 60. It is more like a 53-54 from factory tolerance. dont confuse protection factor with viscosity it can be two different things. The reason many love the 0-40 is it is one of the few blends on the market that are a true synthetic. A few redlines, royal purple and the 0-40 along with a few select others are true synthetics.
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08-22-2013, 07:06 AM | #91 |
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When the copper comes through just off axis on the upper shell yet the bottom shell looks acceptable that is from starvation. The only way to fix it is pull the crank and give proper clearance but the only band aid for now is to run thinner oil which in turn provides more flow, at the cost of changing it more often.
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08-22-2013, 07:41 AM | #92 | |
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08-22-2013, 09:06 AM | #93 | |
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Are you suggesting running a lower weight oil due to cold start situations or do you feel a thinner weight oil is required for all operating temps? The reason I ask is because switching to 0w-40 from 10w-60 will thin the oil in the engine by an order of 10 at cold temps but an order of 20 at higher temps. I admit my knowledge of oil properties is limited. That being said, my understanding is that in an equal cold temp environment (cold start) the 0w-40 is going to be thinner than 10w-60. But in a operating temp environment 0w-40 will be significantly thinner than 10w-60 as well. While the thinner oil might protect the rod bearings is there any other moving part in the engine that the engineers intended 10w-60 for? I understand that both 10w-60 and 0w-40 are quality oils but is it not true that the viscosity levels 40 weight is less than 60 weight at the same operating temp? I worry that switching to a thinner oil is inviting other problems. Thoughts? To address the M1 0w-40 specifically.. the following link explains the crux of the issue. Again, this is a discussion of the oil brand. http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html Again, for Porsche there is actually a list of oils and oil brands that are approved so its quite simple to avoid M1 in favor of another brand. Has anyone been using lighter weight oils for the majority of engine use (M5 maybe)? If so, has anyone checked the con rod bearings on these cars to aid in proving the point for lighter weight oils? Jason
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08-22-2013, 09:58 AM | #94 | |
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As far as the porsche, I thing it is a terrible idea to run anything other than a 10 base weight in a air cooled engine anyway. Wasnt there a recall on all the cam gear and follower issues for the vw guys as they used the wrong material. My bearings will be getting changed in another 10k miles so we will see what they look like after running the mobil for quite some time.
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08-22-2013, 10:52 AM | #95 |
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Well if many want to be proactive and just consider the bearings a wear item at this point, would say changing them out every 60k-80k miles be sufficient to get them changed out before possible catastrophic damage occurs? Should hit 60k miles in about 9 years.
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08-22-2013, 11:16 AM | #96 | |
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08-22-2013, 11:56 AM | #97 |
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Tom, any updates on this?
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08-22-2013, 02:39 PM | #98 |
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Just wrapping up now, posting shortly.
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08-22-2013, 07:18 PM | #99 |
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Posted in new thread: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...1#post14544658
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08-22-2013, 09:02 PM | #100 |
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Past data suggests that 100k miles is about the average life of the rod bearings for the average user. Based on your willingness to spend $$$, service demands and how well you take care of your car will guide you in the right direction.
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08-25-2013, 05:23 PM | #101 |
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08-25-2013, 05:34 PM | #102 |
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well how does that help. hardly think our use is average. should we change bearing after each track day just to be safe?
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08-25-2013, 11:51 PM | #103 |
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08-26-2013, 02:10 AM | #104 | |||
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Also, kawasaki, any chance you could convince the bearing manufacturers to come out with some bearings that would give a little more clearance as "aftermarket?" This statement is a little concerning regarding new bearing part numbers on the S85. Does this apply to us too? Quote:
This guy has done a bunch of bearing changes on the S65 and S85. .
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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08-26-2013, 06:30 AM | #105 |
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This guy is a true pro ... he knows his stuff.
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08-26-2013, 06:45 AM | #106 | |
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I have been talking to one of the clevite guys about -.001 bearings but probably not looking too good on that unless the request comes from the manufacturer. They can get us some but the cost would be way too much for a few sets. Need to order like a thousand sets to get good price.
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08-26-2013, 08:21 AM | #107 |
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Sure we can find 1000 both M3 and M5 owners here to commit. Even if we don't go out and change the bearing straight away, even doing it later will be very useful especially with the additional conformed clearance. Kawasaki, why won't you explore further.
Count on me here.
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08-26-2013, 08:55 AM | #108 | |
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08-26-2013, 09:13 AM | #109 |
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group buy for 1000 units is gonna be a little hard to coordinate.
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08-26-2013, 09:18 AM | #110 | ||
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$400,000 dollar order. My credit card doesnt go that high, anyone with a american express black want to chime in. LOL
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