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07-22-2007, 02:45 PM | #67 |
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07-22-2007, 03:03 PM | #68 | |
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Wasn't that 911 equipped with the slower tipronic tranny? |
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07-22-2007, 03:50 PM | #69 | |
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07-22-2007, 03:55 PM | #70 |
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Yes, but when you begin to look at power under the curve, the M3 really stands out. Add the 8400RPM, stickier tires, and M-DCT and even the Vishnu Version2 will have a hard time hanging with the M3.
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07-22-2007, 10:01 PM | #71 | |
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Ugh
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And no I am not playing stupid. When high power cars, close in performance, race there is a lot of driver skill involved, period. Please try to keep your "stupid" and "retarded" insults and such out of this discussion or I will really have to open up a can of whoop ass on you. BTW I know the bloody definition of anecdotal, however it appears you do not. Why don't you try the definition #3 rather than #1. That should have been PAINFULLY obvious but.... anecdotal: "based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation: anecdotal evidence." |
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07-23-2007, 01:14 AM | #72 |
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It's so great this thread about chipping a 335 exists because the other 999 threads were so poorly thought out I never really got the message that you could chip a 335. Thanks for bringing so much to the forum, it's why I read teh internets, helpful threads like this.
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07-23-2007, 04:27 AM | #73 |
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335i is beautifull..........................but way off topic here........................
M3 that is what we are talking here, just don`t stop doing so IMO.......... |
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07-23-2007, 05:11 AM | #74 | |
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07-23-2007, 05:25 AM | #75 | |
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Obviuosly, there is no dyno of 335 at the crank. You know this, you also know that it can be calculated from rwhp..!! If Vishnu is getting 375+rwhp & 380+rwtq then it's quite obvious that the 335 is getting close to 415HP/420ft-on at the crank with use of PROcede |
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07-23-2007, 06:19 AM | #76 |
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Already beat you guys to it.
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07-23-2007, 09:03 AM | #77 |
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Ugh...All I can say is how sorry I feel for all those unmodified engine parts (pistons, rings, crank), stock trannys, stock brakes and those tiny mitsubishi turbos.
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07-23-2007, 12:16 PM | #78 | |
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As far as the track thing, I never go to a track. I may in the future, but I just want a fast cool car. One that sounds great too and can take a beating. What I see with Vette owners is that they bring them out only on special days and do a Freeway touring, hardly ever on the streets, etc. It just seems more like a novelty item. I like the styling of th eZ06 a lot and wouldn't mind having one, just not so sure on the reliability. But I have owned an E46 M3 for three years now and know that it can take a beating and I like that. I live in L.A. and it's not that I beat up the car on purpose but that the streets are potted and rough and it becomes a consideration. Are you so sure that the M3 could beat the Z06 on a canyon road or in the twisties? |
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07-23-2007, 12:30 PM | #79 | |
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Exact figures
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The Visnhu website claims (and I quote) "+55-60whp". Let's go through the math: Assume about a 15% drive train loss and a liberal estimate of crank hp at 320 (a possible BMW under-rating), 320 x .85 = 272 rwhp, 272 + 60 = 332 rwp. Where do you see 375+ rwhp??? This 332 number could be as low as 310 rwhp as well using 300/55 figures instead of 320/60. |
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07-23-2007, 02:18 PM | #80 |
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The 335 can be relatively inexpensively modified for engine performance, (HP & Torque) to match or exceed the new M3 numbers wise. You may spend $2000.00 or less but you just lost your warranty to catch up to or almost catch up to the 0 to 60/120 mph performance of the new M3. Not mentioning the other outperforming aspects of the M3 over the 335.
However the new M3 can be modified the same with a better initial oem setup/base, (chassis, suspension, lsd and others). Adding two small turbos with low boost even with it's high compression ratio will make great numbers if done right. It's been done to the M5 V10 already. This is why comparing a modified 335 to stock M3 futile. DO NOT think, for one second, that BMW didn't know what the performance possibilities of the 335 were prior to it's release as well as the pressure that could potentially be applied to the performance gap of new M3. DO NOT think that they didn't do something about it either. 1) The 335 has very small turbos, yes this aids in little to no turbo lag but it also means that your maximum boost pressure is limited, you will have to go out and buy one or two bigger turbo units for more boost. It also means that when you maximize the boost on those two small turbos the engine WILL run out of breath on those high speed top end runs 120+ mph. When that happens and it will happen, you,(in the over boosted 335) will find yourself watching the new M3 not walk but run away from you because that is were that 4.0l V8 will shine. 2) Then there is the 335 compression ratio @ 10.2:1. Somewhat high for a oem turbo car but not to bad for two SMALL turbos with low cfm air flow @ 8.5 to 8.8psi. These small units at max will only push approx. 14 to 15psi. Which brings up a question. What would happen to the motor if you replace the two smaller units for one or two larger turbo units, (besides turbo lag) with greater CFM and PSI ? Who knows but the compression ratio will have to be lowered to safely accommodated the new turbo units $$$. These are two very obvious and meaningful points and there are a number of other designed limitation that could have been implemented by BMW to protect the bigger brother(M3) from being total cannibalized by its little brother(335). In order to get the maximum turbo performance out of BOTH, (335 or M3) motors you WILL have to buy turbos and lower the compression ratio among other things. This means $$$ and in the end stock vs. stock or modified vs. modified the M3 will do you better. Compression Ratios For Reference: M5 v10 = 12.0:1 M3 v8 = 12.0:1 M3 I6 = 11.2:1 335 I6 = 10.2:1 991 T = 9.0:1 Sub STI = 8.2:1 Mit EVO = 8.8:1 |
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07-23-2007, 09:10 PM | #82 | |
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Your just angry at the world :mad: I am talking about the up-and-comming PROcede 2.0. The potential of the 335 tune is still in it's infancy. Your math is not correct in any regards. If someone sees a gain of just 50hp at the weels, then it's more at the crank. Not less...!! If the n54 is more like 320 and you add 50rwhp then you will have.. 377hp at the crank (estimated given 15%) But we are not seeing just 55rwhp gains are we...? Dyno below! Here is a link I think you should read(click). Listen, I'm all about the M3, but I am not in denial about what the 335 is capable of for very little money. You seem to be in denial of what people are getting out the the n54 or whats comming down the pipe. Yes, this makes a purchase of an M3 less special in regards to such close compition from the younger brother on roidz, but the 335 will not touch the new M in the many other aspects. But... that is not the topic of this discussion. We are talking about 1/4 mile acceleration. Here's a hint of what Shiv is working on: Notice the 374rwhp ...??? Under a safe tune that there are some 10 beta testers using. Shiv has stated he's being conservative with this 2.0 map. It's not all about the peak anyways, if you compare dyno's the 335 has alot broader delta gain on the M3 in torque and HP. The PROcede 335 has more usable torque band. -Garrett Last edited by Garrett; 07-23-2007 at 09:29 PM.. |
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07-24-2007, 12:43 AM | #83 | |
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Good post - thanks
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Next, my math is not wrong. My numbers are entirely consistent with larger gains at the crank and smaller gains at the wheels. Continue my math! 332 rwhp / .85 = 391 crank hp, gain = 71 hp. So on this one you get the Also, like I have said repeatedly my numbers are from the Vishnu site, not AA, not the 335i FI threads, etc. - i.e. what is available NOW. I guess you might call it denial, maybe a bit fair on that call, however, maybe also just "realistic". There will always be a bigger and better in everything, but the future does not always make the best nor most fair comparison "Shiv has stated he's being conservative with this 2.0 map" - Nice to hear from someone trying to sell you something! I'd trust it a lot more directly from a manufacturer. After all there is a reason you don't see 150 hp/l from the factory with turbos... "The PROcede 335 has more usable torque band." - Yes that is true and it is good at the same time it still suffers from a MUCH lower redline and that makes a huge difference in performance. I guess last but not least my calculations show that +100 rwhp is equivalent to 438 crank hp ((320 x .85)+100)/.85. When you take into account BER, good for 5-10 hp and M-DCT, good for a couple of 1/10 sec on every shift I still don't think you will have a car walking away from the M3. And last but not least - no, Garrett, I absolutely am not angy at the world. Heck did you read some of the replies I have got from the 335i defense team? Talk about angry. Thanks for the "free Freud" though... Cheers |
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07-24-2007, 03:59 AM | #84 | |
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1) PROcede "shiv has stated he's being conservative on this 2.0 map." I'm sure shiv has been conservative on this map.... in regards to performance gains. The engine can undoubtedly pump out more than 435hp at the crank; it would be nothing out of the ordinary for a twin turboed car. But whether he's been conservative in regards to engine durabilityand the longterm effects of a constant 12-14psi on this engine is still up in the air, especially given that the stock turbos feed 6-8psi. His beta testers have only had v2.0 for a few months now... and there's no saying what strains v2.0 will place on the engine over a period of years. And just so I can absolve myself of any hypocrisy, I'm confident that, even knowing the effects of the added strain on the 335 engine are unknown, i'll still load the v2.0 map onto my PROcede. Because driving the car now with the weaker v1.45 map is just too much fun. 2) M-DCT shift times this point has come up in a few THREADS in which you were an active participant, swamp. i think it's fair to say that we don't know with certainty what the shift times will be with the new transmission, but based off vw's dct data, we estimate that dct will perform .03 seconds per shift, a savings of .27 seconds per shift over a skilled manual shift time of .3 seconds. Now, we know car and driver pulled a 4.4sec 0-60mph in the manual M3. We also know with a high degree of certainty that it would require ONE shift throw to get to second gear, the gear in which the M3 will hit 60 mph. If that's the case then the DCT will save .27 seconds x 1 gear change over the manual transmission in getting to 60mph, thereby allowing the M3 to reach 60mph in 4.1 seconds. (4.4 seconds - .27 seconds saved) 3) PROcede and the M3 with DCT Will a v2.0 procede beat 4.1seconds 0-60?? NO. I think even shiv would admit to that. The absolute best case 0-60 runs i've heard of with v1.45 maps are 4.5 seconds, and i don't suspect v2.0's rumored extra 50-60 horsepower will shave .4 seconds off of that figure. If these projected 0-60 calculations are correct in addition to the M3's stiffer chassis, EDC stability control, LSD, and high redline, the M3 vs. a PROceded 335i race might not be at as much of a driver's races as we thought, especially on a track. And, in the quarter mile, where we'd expect to see several gear shifts, the M-DCT's time savings along with the M3's better top end performance, will end up slaying a PROceded 335. But I agree with Garrett, for the money PROcede offers astonishing results, that even an M3 can't scoff at. Though, when it comes down to it, who can say they would choose a substantially modded 335i over an M3? think about it. - esquire (As an aside, it's important to note that from what I've understood of the limited comments surrounding v2.0 thusfar, it's performance is modulated depending on ambient temperature and other in-the-moment factors. So there's no guarantee that the extra 50-60 horsepower will be a constant gain.)
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07-24-2007, 12:09 PM | #85 | |
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1. The monster torque down low of the v2 will be another + pushing things toward a drivers contest. However, the torque is wasted if you can't get traction and that will be tough to control. 3. VW DSG shift times have been reported at 8 milliseconds (.008 s). There is no reason to believe Getrag and BMW will not match or even do better. 3. M-DCT - I'm hoping you are right as well. Best case scenario you are right. Heck the 4.4 number may even be a tad less given a perfect road surface so we may be looking at 4.0 flat with M-DCT! All of this speculation though is HIGHLY dependent on the launch capability of M-DCT. SMG generally launched much more consistently than 6MT but, in the limit, not as fast nor with as much traction. Therefore speed contests, especially in the lower speed ones went to the 6MT. |
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07-24-2007, 09:46 PM | #86 | |
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thoughts on launch control
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i don't know that M-DCT would suffer from this same ailment, given that the dual clutch system always holds the next gear in reserve, ready to be engaged. If this is the case, the distance between gears would become irrelevant, and M-DCT launch control would outpace SMG's. Thoughts and feedback welcome. - esquire
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07-24-2007, 09:57 PM | #87 | |
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07-24-2007, 09:59 PM | #88 | |
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