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01-22-2024, 06:29 PM | #67 |
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My life must be pretty damn dull that I have come back here for some entertainment, lol!
The only thing I would interject in this ridiculous thread, you may have the best **insert description here** ever made, but if you have shitty service you will never get any of my money. Don't care if it costs a single $ or thousands, same thing applies. Good day.
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01-22-2024, 07:00 PM | #68 | |
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Challenging why your product is good, with the background it has is reasonable, sadly for this project, its not starting form 0 like a new company, its starting from -100, because of the previously bad reputation - that is something that you should have taken into account when taking this project on. And again, while Abdul claims to have many successful products many disagree. The most successful one, the actuators are not Abduls at all, and it is weird he tries to take credit for it as if its his R&D or Product. Actuators are loved and needed because: * They are much cheaper than OEM - (due to rebuild's pricing) * They improve on the original design and last - (once again, rebuild's R&D and work - nothing to do with Abdul) Abdul made sure availability is good in the US - and so far all of the issues/complaints were from this domain. no one complained they are pricey or do not work Acknowledge that area has improved - but the reputation lingers. No one said Abdul is shady. I said the Dyno charts were shady, because they had marketing BS about gains (35hp - common, don't give the raw number, that shit is misleading). And the number fudging with stock dyno runs ending before the redline - To which Abdul conveniently did not even comment. On top of that - the original marketing of EAE was - "we designed this for bling, and look at that - by mere coincidence its the best performing plenum on the market" - Of course it is |
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01-22-2024, 07:09 PM | #69 | |
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JDiaz16.50 |
01-22-2024, 07:12 PM | #70 | |
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Uo = 36” = 914.4 mm, for assumed plenum width (should be distance between F-R sided trumpets or the long length of the lexan window) U = 2.3 mm (quoted thermal deformation) DelT = T - Tref = 100 C, T =120 C. Tref = 20 C (room temperature) So CTE is alpha = U / (DelT*Uo) = 2.3 / (120*914.4) = 251.6 ppm/C Note: CTE would be even higher if a correct, shorter, length was used in the calculation Which material has a CTE of 251.6 ppm/C? CF CTE is (likely negative and) on the order of 0.1 ppm/C. You’d have a potential CTE mismatch problem between this material, the structural adhesive, and the CF, if the CTE or deformation at 120 C are correct. |
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Tuner199.00 |
01-22-2024, 08:08 PM | #71 |
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This thread is why I stay the F... away from forums. Everyone has the right to question a product and ask for details. But stop being blasphemous about fellow members. It doesn't take a genius to see that Abdul is a very standup person and has a great reputation across multiple BMW subgroups. I have known him from the M5baord since my days of owning an E39 M5. Till this day, I don't know of anyone who has dealt with him that had anything negative to say other than the fact that sometimes takes a few days to get back to you. From what I understand, this was not his fulltime thing when he first started so that's understandable.
Yes, he is not the one who invented Rebuild Ta's. But he was damn well the person who put his money where his mouth was and provided that service for us here in North America. I have done 2-3 transactions with him over the years. I Bought TAs from him back in the day when I still had my M3 and had an amazing experience. Also bought G30/F90 taillights from him and I think one other thing. Can't remember off the top of my head. Abdul I'm happy you're still in the business and are on to new projects. I wish you all the luck. |
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Fooksdaddy110.00 |
01-22-2024, 08:30 PM | #72 | |
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01-22-2024, 08:48 PM | #73 |
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01-22-2024, 09:00 PM | #74 | |
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Okay I will.
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Further, your math as written is wrong but the solution your calculator gave you is… also wrong. You lost a decimal point somewhere. It’s almost like you forgot I said 2.3mm over 100c shit. To correct your math the formula would be: 2.3=a*914*100 2.3mm/91,400= 25.1ųm/c or as you put it, 25.1ppm But wait there’s more, because that’s not accurate. Why? Because you redefined the length without a commensurate redefinition of the expansion across that length at 100deltaT Let’s do that so we can determine which material I was talking about: 91.4% of 2.3 is 2.102 soooooooo 2.102/914*100= 23ųm per degree Celsius https://www.gabrian.com/6061-aluminum-properties/ Man I am too slow with forum formatting lol |
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0-60Motorsports796.50 |
01-22-2024, 09:20 PM | #75 | |
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Yes, please keep me posted on those fuel rails, Abdul.
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Abdul1046.50 |
01-22-2024, 09:46 PM | #76 |
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Unfortunate devolution of this thread, gentlemen.
For the record: Partee Racing so far has generated two carbon fiber products: carbon fiber velocity stacks for the E39 M5 and the plenum that is the subject of this thread. The velocity stacks have been a huge success and even more effective than we had expected. They gained 22WHP on one of our NA HO S62 builds on back to back dyno runs, same car, same engine, same dyno, same day, 15 minutes apart. Why? Because we went to the trouble of making a 180 degree bellmouth. Remember this for later because it informs the design of our E9X plenum. The carbon in our E9X plenum is made as a single piece. It is our opinion that this design is stronger that two-piece plenums that have been bonded together, for many reasons, but one of them is the much larger likelihood of assembling error with gluing two pieces together. Too much glue, squeezing it together to tightly, wrong cure temp, oily hands on the area where the glue should adhere--all provide a high possibility of a mistake that is just not present with single-piece carbon fiber. That is our design choice, we stand by it, if you disagree, that's your right, but we think you are wrong. And the response we have received to our design from multiple carbon fiber fabricators whose opinion we respect corroborates our conclusion. The stack design: The S65 is intended to be a much higher revving motor than the S62, breathing well in the 7k to 8.6K rpm range. For that application, shorter stacks make sense and typically perform very well. But the length and twist angle of the stacks is immaterial next to the shape of the bellmouth. From the experience of others to our own testing--which it took to convince Chrisyphyus (lol) that I was right--a flat opening to the stack is disastrous for air flow, whereas 180 degree bellmouth is pure magic. The E9X plenum stacks have a beautiful contoured 180degree plus bellmouth. That combined with the increase in area just above them as a result of our removal of the side "ribs" in the plenum WILL increase performance over stock AND over competitors that do not run the requisite bellmouth. No, we haven't compared them side by side, in part because those competitors are friends and colleagues with whom we do business in other areas. So instead of throwing shade on a particular plenum, we are just touting what we reasonably believe to be the superior design of our own plenum. As for the Lexan window: I don't like it either candidly, but LOTS of customers wanted it, both here and in our S62 plenum that we just launched tonight. I refused to do a Lexan window with the S62 because it would just offend my sensibilities, and Abdul kindly deferred to me there, so I deferred to the wishes of Abdul and many customers here. That said, we ARE making a one-piece version WITHOUT the Lexan for those who want it. For the record, we had nothing to do with the prior EAE plenum which was admittedly a POS. As we would have expected of Abdul, he refunded all of those purchases, and we are now offering our plenum to those customers at a discount. Draw negative conclusions about the quality of our product from that unfortunate scenario (much more for Abdul than anyone) if you want, but they are unwarranted. Finally, and maybe this is just me showing my age (I'm 58) and the fact that I've practiced law for 32 years, but I would greatly appreciate it if we can tone down the rhetoric (on both sides) and just have a friendly informed debate or expression of differing opinions. Intelligent mature people should be able to do that. Thanks. --Peter |
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kolosy1557.50 DRLane3996.00 Abdul1046.50 CTMike262.00 Fooksdaddy110.00 0-60Motorsports796.50 Ali-E90383.00 VR1641.00 Tuner199.00 |
01-23-2024, 05:55 AM | #77 |
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I’ll own my mistake. I mis-carried my decimal place.
Series design question. Depending on which version of Lexan you’re using, it could have a CTE as high as ~40 ppm/C, with the adhesive you’re using, are you concerned about the combined thermal deformation/cycling + vibroacoustic response of the top CF-Lexan cover introducing a peel loading in the adhesive? This would be a concern if the Lexan cover has much higher bending and axial, and to a lesser degree OOP and IP shear, stiffness relative to the CF. Last edited by M3SQRD; 01-23-2024 at 07:20 AM.. |
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kolosy1557.50 |
01-23-2024, 07:31 AM | #78 | |
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The longer answer is that the CTE is 37ųm which is a lot. We took this into consideration and worked with it. Lexan section is just under 15” in length and 10 in width. If it were 2 or 3 times this size, it would be a much larger factor to consider, but at this size and with the temperature fluctuations it should see (not far outside of ambient) it’s very manageable. |
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01-23-2024, 08:28 AM | #79 | |
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What’s the CTE, shear strength, modulus and peel strength of the methyl methacrylate at RT and elevated temp? There are too many versions of methyl methacrylate adhesive to randomly pick one plus very few mechanical properties are listed (at least in the material databases I have access to). Engine bay temps not far from ambient temp? My engine bay, and plenum, are quite hot after a 30 min track session. Have you made predictions of the relative OOP deformation and rotations of the Lexan-CF at the free edge of the Lexan? They’ll be an OOP loading, in addition to the IP loading from thermal deformation, on the adhesive and, generally speaking, peel strength is low for structural adhesives. |
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herrubermensch44.00 |
01-23-2024, 12:15 PM | #80 | |
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Thanks, Good questions! Last edited by Chrisyphus; 01-24-2024 at 08:52 AM.. Reason: typo |
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herrubermensch44.00 |
01-23-2024, 09:26 PM | #81 |
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Chrisyphus
Engine vs. plenum temperature - good point about it not being hot while on the track when it’s subjected to vibroacoustic response/loading. Heat soak occurs when the plenum is subjected to conductive and radiative heat transfer mechanisms. Max IATs of the e9x M3 is the thermal environment that would occur at the same time as the mechanical loading environment. Peel strength - true, all adhesives have poor peel strength so poor word choice However, I work with thermal engineers that want to use thermally-isolating adhesives that have abysmal peel strength! Thickness ratio of Lexan vs. CF fabric/layup - how thick is the Lexan? Have you estimated the OOP displacement and IP rotations of the Lexan at the bonded I/Fs with the CF? The relative bending stiffness of the Lexan and CF will produce a curvature/slope discontinuity and, thus, generate a peak peel loading in the adhesive along the free edge of the Lexan - higher Laxan-to-CF bending stiffness ratio = higher peel load. As you know, workmanship issues during the prepping of bonding surfaces are critical for developing peel strength. One time we had shear clips between composite square tube sections at double lap shear joints that had used standard surface prep and bonding procedures yet the clips were popping off with a < 10 lbf transverse shear load (luckily a sleeve on a clean room jacket snagged a clip; design load requirement was >=100 lbf). This wasn’t a peel load issue, it was a smooth cohesive failure of the entire adhesive bonding surface. Well, after many stressful days and nights, we found out it was the surface prep agent that had contaminated ALL shear clip bonding surfaces with a silicone oil. Contamination had occurred at the manufacture’s facility. All shear clips had to be removed and all bonding surfaces had to thoroughly cleaned and prepped…if your design has similar bending stiffness between the Lexan and CF then please ignore my comments. If there’s a high ratio of the Lexan-to-CF then this is something that should be addressed in the design. Combined mechanical-thermal loading environments aren’t a major concern. |
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01-24-2024, 09:22 AM | #82 | |
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Last edited by Chrisyphus; 01-24-2024 at 10:55 AM.. Reason: formatting |
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01-24-2024, 10:02 AM | #83 |
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Chrisyphus
Thanks for the quick and detailed response. Relative bending stiffness isn’t an issue even with the Laxan 2:1 thickness ratio. Modulus of Lexan is 0.35 msi vs. the CF being in the 10-20 msi range so flexural midulus, D (similar to EI in a beam but for a unit width), is proportional to E*t^3 so the lexan thickness ratio makes it 8x stiffer but the modulus ratio advantage is for the CF with a value of > 10:1 so lack of local flexibility will minimize any curvature discontinuity and, therefore, reduce any adhesive peel loading. No doubt. It’s obvious you’re not throwing things together in a dark corner of the basement |
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02-02-2024, 07:11 PM | #85 |
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Have to say as a visiting Brit on this forum, I was really put off by the attacking tone some posters had towards Abdul and Chris.
I’m really glad the thread has ended up productive. I’ve ordered one of these plenums which I am looking forward to installing in the uk. I just wanted to point out that on the advice of the guys I have gone with the Lexan window version. I’m not keen on the appearance but don’t tend to drive with my hood open, I just wanted to point out that my main criteria in induction roar volume and I have been informed that the lexan version is the louder of the two choices. By how much and for what reason I do not know. So long as it’s the loudest choice, I couldn’t care less if it looks better placed on a Japanese car. |
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02-15-2024, 05:38 PM | #86 | |
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Happy to answer any production-related or other questions you might have, as is Chris. Chris can be reached at Chris@parteeracing.com, and I can be reached at Peters@parteeracing.com. --Peter |
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02-15-2024, 05:48 PM | #87 | |
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02-16-2024, 12:24 AM | #88 | |
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