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12-19-2010, 02:58 PM | #23 | |
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The odd thing about weight reduction from Porsche is that for every "real" Porsche "enthusiast" out there, there are 100 dentists, lawyers and wealthy housewives who don't give a damn about handling (or perhaps slightly more accurate - handling anywhere close to a the car's limits). I think the new 1M shows that BMW is willing to get back to roots a bit. Sure the car is not an E30 M3 but it is fairly spartan compared to a loaded M3. And, as I've mentioned, it is lighter than the 135i.
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12-19-2010, 03:14 PM | #24 |
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Swamp, you went to a lot of trouble, but it was interesting reading.
It's probably fair to say that I too am skeptical that a non-S motor will be used. If that is the end result, M Division has deteriorated more and faster than I ever would have imagined possible. However, it is possible and we'll know sooner or later. I'll throw the following out there for you and everyone who wishes to chew on. The approach that I took was from a historical-generational-performance improvement over previous generation M3's. NOTE: Weights and horsepower output numbers are those peculiar to the first motor offered within each generation. E30 M3: 1,202 kg/220 hp = 5.46 kg/hp E36 M3: 1,461 kg/286 hp = 5.11 kg/hp Wt:HP ratio 5.11/5.46 = 0.94 (or a 6% decrease in the wt:hp ratio in the E36 in relation to the E30) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ E46 M3: 1,571 kg/343 hp = 4.58 kg/hp Wt:HP ratio 4.58/5.11 = 0.90 (or a 10% decrease in the wt:hp ratio in the E46 in relation to the E36) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ E92 M3: 3.8 kg * 420 hp = 1,596 kg (Wt/hp source: Official BMW M3 International Launch information (Please see attachment page 17). Yes, the official “unladen” weight is 3704 or 1,683 kg which doesn’t quite mesh with the equally “official” 3.8kg-to-1hp. ) Wt:HP ratio 3.8 kg/4.58 kg = 0.83 (or a 17% decrease in the wt:hp ratio of E92 in relation to the E46) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Over four generations the weight-to-horsepower ratio has been reduced by 6%, 10%, and 17% while horsepower has increased by 30%, 20%, and 22%. At the same time, weight has increased by 22%, 8%, and 2%. It is probably a safe bet that the next generation M3 will follow tradition by being a better performer than the previous generation. Not knowing the extent to which performance improvement is targeted poses the greatest obstacle to getting a handle on this "puzzle". To wit: Will the next generation attempt to match the massive performance increase over a previous generation as was achieved with the E92M3 or will the performance increase be more akin to that of the E36M3 vis a vis the E30M3? Scenarios In order improve the kg/wt ratio of the 5th generation M3 at what would be a historical average – (6%+10%+17%) / 3 = 7.67%) – such would be achieved by increasing horsepower to 455 with no weight increase whatsoever would result in a “new” kg:hp ratio would be 3.51kg/hp. If weight does increase as many suspect that it will, including myself, and let’s suppose the increase is a mere 25kg, an additional 17 horsepower would be needed to offset the weight increase while retaining a 7.67% decrease in weight to horsepower that results in the improved 3.51kg/hp. On the other hand, if the design team of the next generation M3 targeted a replication of what was achieved with the E92 versus the E46 – a combination of minimal weight increase and massive power increase – the next generation would gain approximately 30 kg to weigh in at 1,628 kg (+2%) while power would increase by 92hp to 512hp (+22%), and that translates into a 3.18 kg/hp ratio. Yeah, I don’t think that that’s going to happen either, but if it did, a lot of people would be signing up for a ride that would have little to fear from anything on the road. In the meantime, we have among us the E92M3 model which is the gold standard for performance advancement over previous generations. Matching its improvement specs would be something special, topping that set of improvement specs would make for a phenomenal fifth generation M3, IMHO of course.
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12-19-2010, 03:19 PM | #25 |
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I understand why many are upset about the lack of another high rpm na engine from th M division, but will say that the idea of a turbo the way it has been described sounds very very appealing. BMW does build some of the very best engines and I am sure this one will not disappoint.
My best guess as to power, weight and price are basically in line with many of the aforementioned opinions: 3550-3600, 450-460 hp, 425-450 lb/ft of torque maintaining 90% of that between 1800 and 4500 rpms, w/over-boost achieving 460-480 for ten 10 seconds and a well optioned w/DCT price of $86,000-$90,000. I don't see any major weight loss, however, a modest reduction coupled with the added ponies, impressive torque band and improved fuel economy will make a nice package. It is as with any car of this caliber the sum of all of its parts. Even Porsche is moving in that direction, with a speculated 100 lb weight loss from the Carrera, a few more ponies -likely 410-415. As well as a longer wheelbase with less overhang and moving the engine a few inches forward. You're right Ruff, although the A.S.S. (Adaptive Sport Seats) are very comfy they weigh in at roughly 47 lbs more than my comfy standard sports seats in the 3. The carbons are lighter still (by roughly 26 more lbs.) but a wee more difficult to get in and out and not quite as comfortable. But, yeah, I agree with you, it's the old be careful what you wish for thing. Last edited by devo; 12-19-2010 at 07:40 PM.. |
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12-19-2010, 03:44 PM | #26 |
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SWAMP, great work, always good to participate in great discussions. But as far as I'm concerned, the redline predictions for this car is where my interest ends. At this point, with low-revving engine, and boring turbo characteristics, my bet there will be nothing to separate this car from its competitors.
Might as well buy a GTR or C63 or anything. I'm sorry, but I can't see what is left to keep this car ///M as they have killed its soul. Its all the same now..... Cheers, e46e92
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12-19-2010, 03:50 PM | #27 |
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i dunno about the f32 M3, Im just not a fan of turbos
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12-19-2010, 08:10 PM | #30 |
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12-19-2010, 09:02 PM | #31 |
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Fully loaded I'd say this car will push $82k 100%
My E92 (fully loaded) was $77.8k Also, I don't see this car having LESS than 480hp. Absolutely no way. HP, Torque, performance, everything will be better. Bottom line.
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12-19-2010, 09:02 PM | #32 |
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I will not pay more then 70 for a 2014 m3, Prices are getting very expensive for a m3.
Most importantly, if the car doesnt have one amazing engine ( i really love v8 now), ill skip. Guys you can buy a fully loaded 911s (105k) for 80k right now , they offer 25k off. |
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12-19-2010, 09:22 PM | #33 | |
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If there's no MT version, I can't imagine BMW not including the only tranny, M-DCT or whatever replaces M-DCT, in the base price since the M3 won't be sold as the only vehicle on the planet which the customer has to opt for a tranny at additional cost to base price. So maybe that ~$3k tranny gets shoved into the base price. Then we're at 68-69k with DCT "standard". Another 10k+of options/packages + TTL could easily see out-the-door price in the $80-$85k range for the coupe; nevermind the vert. Regardless, a base price increase that's close to the percentage increase of the E92 vs the E46 is too be expected, IMO, maybe more.
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12-19-2010, 09:29 PM | #34 | |
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12-19-2010, 11:13 PM | #36 |
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That's an old F10 5-series test mule.
The next generation M3 has not yet been spotted.
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12-19-2010, 11:40 PM | #37 |
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That's not the point. I prefer the best NA engine over the best turbo engine.
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12-19-2010, 11:46 PM | #38 | |
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Even if that was an F30 spy pic it wouldn't be a fair comparison. Ever heard of perspective? According to what I've seen the new car is very slightly longer and slightly taller. Most if its growth is in its width and wheelbase. And again for the 2nd time, the rumored weight for the base model F3X 3er is LESS than the existing 328i. That is a good sign for sure. The M3 will benefit from the weight reduction efforts for the base model and then again from the work by the M division.
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12-19-2010, 11:55 PM | #39 | ||
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Your last scenario, along with most of the other unrealistically optimistic estimates or hopes posted here in this thread are really that. They are simply unrealistic based on insuring the next M3 keeps its place in the BMW M line up, just below the M5.
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12-19-2010, 11:58 PM | #40 |
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I don't think anybody doubts that the next-Gen M3 will out-perform current-Gen M3. The question is, do all of us want 6cyl-TT? And, will we be happy w/ the new styling? If the latest 5- and 7-series' designs are any indications, some of us won't be happy with it. As it is, you can't quickly tell if a current bimmer is a 5- or a 7-series; and, will that extend to the next 3-series?? Do all of us buy the cars we buy simply for performance only?
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12-20-2010, 12:02 AM | #41 | |
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Now all that being said, if you want an all out track car (or simply the engine experience of such a car) NA is the way to go and the S65 is a real gem. Just to be clear I'm certainly not implying here that the E9X M3 is an all out track car at all.
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12-20-2010, 12:41 AM | #42 | |
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I'm sorry buy your weight figures are way off. Therefore your power to weight ratios are also way off. DIN curb weight (preliminary as they call it): E30 M3 at 1,225 kg = 2,701 lbs E36 M3 at 1,385 kg = 3,053 lbs E46 M3 at 1,474 kg = 3,250 lbs E82 1M at 1,495 kg = 3,296 lbs E92 M3 at 1,605 kg = 3,538 lbs EU standard weight: E30 M3 at 1,300 kg = 2,865 lbs E36 M3 at 1,460 kg = 3,219 lbs E46 M3 at 1,549 kg = 3,415 lbs E82 1M at 1,570 kg = 3,461 lbs E92 M3 at 1,680 kg = 3,704 lbs EU is DIN + 68kg driver and 7kg luggage. |
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12-20-2010, 12:50 AM | #43 |
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Oh yeah... that's why I'm getting an M3 now... and I don't see myself selling this car, or trading for another newer generation M car...
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12-20-2010, 12:55 AM | #44 |
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The above assumes the quoted weights are in fact correct... but I'm curious if anyone has scaled or corner weighted a stock car this low? That's supposed to be a full fuel weight...
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