Track alignment suggestions

[Gossypiboma]

I’m installing camber plates soon and will have my car aligned afterwards and would like some input.

What are your thoughts on the below settings? Particularly the difference in front to rear camber?

Important factors:
10-14 track events per year and rarely drive the car on the street
Stock ZCP suspension with camber plates
I usually run 275 square NT01’s but will be trying Proxes RR’s this time around.


Camber:
Front: 3*
Rear: 2* ( I believe this is about the limit of the stock ZCP suspension)

Toe:
Front: Zero
Rear: ⅛ toe in, both sides

Caster:
Keep the factory setting or increase to what?

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Gossypiboma

I'm installing camber plates soon and will have my car aligned afterwards and would like some input.

What are your thoughts on the below settings? Particularly the difference in front to rear camber?

Important factors:
10-14 track events per year and rarely drive the car on the street
Stock ZCP suspension with camber plates
I usually run 275 square NT01's but will be trying Proxes RR's this time around.


Camber:
Front: 3*
Rear: 2* ( I believe this is about the limit of the stock ZCP suspension)

Toe:
Front: Zero
Rear: ⅛ toe in, both sides

Caster:
Keep the factory setting or increase to what?

I'd you can increase caster, max it with the RRs. They like it and negative camber. Everything else is solid though I'm sure lots of folks would prefer some toe out in the front. Just know it will wear the tires but provide additional turn in.

[Davisca455]

I got this from SYT_Shadow.

My main concern is even tire wear, and this alignment has been working very well for me on both PS4s and NT01s.

(I change the front camber before and after each track event, -2.0 to -3.0 and then back to -2.0)

[Gossypiboma]

Originally Posted by Davisca455

I got this from SYT_Shadow.

My main concern is even tire wear, and this alignment has been working very well for me on both PS4s and NT01s.

(I change the front camber before and after each track event, -2.0 to -3.0 and then back to -2.0)

This looks legit, ill try and replicate it.

[Davisca455]

Originally Posted by Gossypiboma

This looks legit, ill try and replicate it.

…too be clear.

I only change the front camber, the toe changes itself opportunistically from slightly IN to slightly OUT.

I was helping the alignment tech at the local Goodyear store, and the different toe settings, as they relate to the different camber settings, matched SYT_Shadow's results.

[Gossypiboma]

It looks like most alignment machines speak in degrees and not inches. I'm also a bit confused about toe per side and total toe.

I've seen the suggestion for 1/32 toe out in front, is that 1/32 for each side or a total toe out of 1/32? Does 1/32 correspond to .09*?

Same for the rear. I've seen 1/16 toe in suggested for the rear. Is that per side or total toe and does 1/16 correspond to .18*?

[Gossypiboma]

Originally Posted by Davisca455

…too be clear.

I only change the front camber, the toe changes itself opportunistically from slightly IN to slightly OUT.

I was helping the alignment tech at the local Goodyear store, and the different toe settings, as they relate to the different camber settings, matched SYT_Shadow's results.

Got it. Is .398 toe out in the front your total toe or toe for each side? That's about 1/8 inch?

[Davisca455]

Originally Posted by Gossypiboma

Got it. Is .398 toe out in the front your total toe or toe for each side? That's about 1/8 inch?

Total toe.
Yes, .398 total degrees equals 1/8" total.
The alignment machine at the local Goodyear has inches, millimeters and degrees, but you have to choose before you start.

Attached is a string alignment chart that shows inches and degrees.

Also attached is my alignment on the daily setting.
With the front camber at -1.9 degrees, total toe is .27 IN.
With everything locked down, I changed the front camber to -3.0 degrees, and the total toe moved to .40 degrees OUT.

[VictorH]

I think there are some good suggestions here. You are attending a lot of track events, which makes me think you really need optimal alignment for both street and track. My experience:
For street would run -1.5 degrees negative (which was as low as I could go with Vorshlag camber plates).
For track would run -3.5 degrees negative

To go from street to full track, there would be a large toe change. I would have to turn both tie rods 1/2 turn to keep toe reasonable, slightly toe in for street and slightly toe out for track).
With this method I got 32,000 to 35,000 miles out of my street front tires and track tires I'll say depends on your style so you can't really judge by how many days any particular person gets out of track tires. It's an easy adjustment, so unless it's a real pain to raise your car, I would suggest planning to adjust toe with camber adjustments.

[Davisca455]

Originally Posted by VictorH

I think there are some good suggestions here. You are attending a lot of track events, which makes me think you really need optimal alignment for both street and track. My experience:
For street would run -1.5 degrees negative (which was as low as I could go with Vorshlag camber plates).
For track would run -3.5 degrees negative

To go from street to full track, there would be a large toe change. I would have to turn both tie rods 1/2 turn to keep toe reasonable, slightly toe in for street and slightly toe out for track).
With this method I got 32,000 to 35,000 miles out of my street front tires and track tires I'll say depends on your style so you can't really judge by how many days any particular person gets out of track tires. It's an easy adjustment, so unless it's a real pain to raise your car, I would suggest planning to adjust toe with camber adjustments.

On my car (and SYT_Shadow's), changing the front camber 1.0 degree results in only .67 degrees of total toe change.

Going from -1.5 all the way to -3.5 would possibly double (1.34 degrees) that total toe change, so I agree that you'd be required to get under the car with a wrench.

At -3.0 degrees, my PS4s heat cycled out (6 track days) before they wore out.

For the moment I'm still using the heat cycled PS4s for the street, and bought a dedicated set of NT01s for the track.

[bigjae1976]

Unless you're doing a lot of street driving, I'd just leave camber at the track setting. Zero toe minimizes wear. Just can't drive the car without your hands on the steering wheel.

[tsk94]

^ Agreed. In my experience, toe is killer for street tire wear. I've driven plenty of cars at ~-2.5 to -3* on the street for a few years and many thousands of miles and as long as the toe is zero (or close to zero), the tire wear has been fine. YMMV..

[Gossypiboma]

Well, here's what I ended up with. The right rear is actually -2.3 camber matching the left.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Just can't drive the car without your hands on the steering wheel.

Well, this will be quite the change for many drivers I encounter.

[ashutoshkotha]

Originally Posted by Gossypiboma

Well, here's what I ended up with. The right rear is actually -2.3 camber matching the left.

Great and very useful discussion. Just following up on this.

How are you feeling with this setup?

Done a few track days with stock alignment (EDC & Swift lowering springs.). I'm gonna start adjusting my car's alignment to see what difference it makes on track.

[Gossypiboma]

Originally Posted by ashutoshkotha

Great and very useful discussion. Just following up on this.

How are you feeling with this setup?

Done a few track days with stock alignment (EDC & Swift lowering springs.). I'm gonna start adjusting my car's alignment to see what difference it makes on track.

The alignment definitely helped overall. With the same tires at multiple tracks I was 1-2 seconds faster. I don't know if that can all be attributed to the alignment, but it was a definite improvement.

What I was disappointed in was the continued poor turn in which I was hoping to improve with the addition of front end toe out. After riding in a few other cars I'm convinced this is more of an attribute associated with the NT01's and I plan to try the new RE71 RS's soon.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by Gossypiboma

The alignment definitely helped overall. With the same tires at multiple tracks I was 1-2 seconds faster. I don't know if that can all be attributed to the alignment, but it was a definite improvement.

What I was disappointed in was the continued poor turn in which I was hoping to improve with the addition of front end toe out. After riding in a few other cars I'm convinced this is more of an attribute associated with the NT01's and I plan to try the new RE71 RS's soon.

your caster is pretty subpar for turn in. 7.5 is more for like high speed... you need at least 8-9 for noticeable turn in.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Gossypiboma

The alignment definitely helped overall. With the same tires at multiple tracks I was 1-2 seconds faster. I don't know if that can all be attributed to the alignment, but it was a definite improvement.

What I was disappointed in was the continued poor turn in which I was hoping to improve with the addition of front end toe out. After riding in a few other cars I'm convinced this is more of an attribute associated with the NT01's and I plan to try the new RE71 RS's soon.

Driving can absolutely affect turn in depending on how/when you come off the brake and back on the throttle.

A smooth transition from brake to throttle can significantly increase turn in. Add in steering inputs which will also affect the front end grip.

I'd recommend learning to drive the setup vs chasing a setup after driving habits which may not be optimal.

If you're gaining 1-2 seconds per lap then, no offense, it's probably driving related.

[Gossypiboma]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Driving can absolutely affect turn in depending on how/when you come off the brake and back on the throttle.

A smooth transition from brake to throttle can significantly increase turn in. Add in steering inputs which will also affect the front end grip.

I'd recommend learning to drive the setup vs chasing a setup after driving habits which may not be optimal.

If you're gaining 1-2 seconds per lap then, no offense, it's probably driving related.

After looking back that 1-2 secs is also partly attributed to a catless x pipe, tune and camber plates. Could technique be a part of it, sure, but I honestly think the majority of what I'm feeling is related to the tires, the sidewalls on NT01's are known to be soft and vague.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by Gossypiboma

After looking back that 1-2 secs is also partly attributed to a catless x pipe, tune and camber plates. Could technique be a part of it, sure, but I honestly think the majority of what I'm feeling is related to the tires, the sidewalls on NT01's are known to be soft and vague.

realistically speaking, a 30-40whp bump from tunne and exhaust work. isn't 2 seconds faster.

NT01s typically drive better after the first few laps.

and vehicle weight plays factor, soft compound tires typically don't like how heavy our cars is at full weight.

so you'd probably want to run a higher cold/hot temp to account for that.

also going back to caster, it's on the low side too.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Gossypiboma

After looking back that 1-2 secs is also partly attributed to a catless x pipe, tune and camber plates. Could technique be a part of it, sure, but I honestly think the majority of what I'm feeling is related to the tires, the sidewalls on NT01's are known to be soft and vague.

I've been driving on NT01s for 10 years and never had an issue with a vague turn in on multiple cars with multiple setups. The NT01s require feel since they provide zero audible feedback until you're so out of sorts that there's no hope. You have to like throttle steering if you want to be fast on NT01s.

No offense, 1-2 second improvement indicates a lack of consistency. I've watched many people constantly make changes and upgrades to their car and chase a setup. Typically what happens is their driving development slows or stops and their setup strays further from optimal. I witness it at almost every event I go to. Even among instructors. I'm just watching an instructor throw grippier and grippier tires at the car…he has not closed the lap time gap at all.

Im watching my old student running RS4s on a stripped out E36 M3. I recommended he stay on RS4s until he could drive consistent laps. He passes most cars in the advanced group.

I recommend going back to a lower grip street tire so you get the audible feedback. Give it patience and time…learn to drive the car as it is.

[M eyedoc]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I've been driving on NT01s for 10 years and never had an issue with a vague turn in on multiple cars with multiple setups. The NT01s require feel since they provide zero audible feedback until you're so out of sorts that there's no hope. You have to like throttle steering if you want to be fast on NT01s.

No offense, 1-2 second improvement indicates a lack of consistency. I've watched many people constantly make changes and upgrades to their car and chase a setup. Typically what happens is their driving development slows or stops and their setup strays further from optimal. I witness it at almost every event I go to. Even among instructors. I'm just watching an instructor throw grippier and grippier tires at the car…he has not closed the lap time gap at all.

Im watching my old student running RS4s on a stripped out E36 M3. I recommended he stay on RS4s until he could drive consistent laps. He passes most cars in the advanced group.

I recommend going back to a lower grip street tire so you get the audible feedback. Give it patience and time…learn to drive the car as it is.

This is very wise advice. I see the same problem up north. Sticky tires are fun, but tend to flatten the learning curve. I am also a huge fan of learning how to drive what we have. Chasing setup changes to make up for our bad habits teaches nothing. Several years ago I had my advice come full circle. Bought the e90 after years of tracking my e46. Was struggling with understeer both entry and mid corners. Had a pro driver drive the car and he said yes there's a little mid-corner but the rest seems good. I decided not to make changes and learned to drive the car. Interesting enough, car (and or the driver) no longer pushes into the turns. Proof that all of us can keep learning. I do agree with camber plates as they will save a fortune in front tires.