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11-08-2018, 08:30 AM | #23 | |||||||
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They are just now touching 300hp with the small vehicle platform, while the competition is about to blow past 400hp. They put all their M eggs in the the I6 basket, and they decided they only needed the M2 which is a great performance coupe that's trying to woo people who want a performance sedan or SUV. It doesn't matter how good the product is when its not the right form factor for a large portion of the enthusiast market. Despite claims by and efforts from past M bosses to keep it from happening, they dogmatically thumbed their noses at high performance vehicles with east/west engines while their counterparts embraced them with open arms. Quote:
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Be it the result of too much turnover in the leadership of their performance arm, or simple arrogance, they absolutely did drop the ball. If they hadn't dropped the ball, we'd have 300hp and 400hp small BMW sedans and SUVs on BMW lots today. Quote:
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11-08-2018, 09:47 AM | #24 |
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so to expound on my semi-flippant comment above, i think the premise of this thread is faulty. the cars BMW are building do not diverge from the needs and wants of most of its customers. their sales figures are the best proof of that.
the curmudgeons on the forum (i put myself in this group) are not their priority anymore. sure, they'd like to keep as many of us as possible, and they will try to throw us a bone here and there like the M2 and the F8x CS and GTS...but they won't be maniacal about designing their products for us. that's truly why they keep missing the mark, in my opinion. right now they are attempting to play both sides of the fence, which is to try to keep their brand as "the ultimate driving machine" while in reality trying to sell tens of thousands of cars to people who really want a more luxe Nissan Altima or Maxima. and that's fair enough, although bitterly disappointing. really, the biggest threat to BMW US sales is the increasing cost of money and the threat it poses to BMW's ability to push sales through lease subsidies. |
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11-08-2018, 10:54 AM | #25 | |
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11-13-2018, 10:46 PM | #26 |
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Every manufacturer has a niche. While Ford makes overall quality products for the price, it is obvious there #1 product they concentrate on is the full size pickup market. And it shows. Anyone that has been in the new F150 (especially the Raptor) can see why this is the best selling truck. Sure there are Titans and ridgelines and Tundras. All are fine quality trucks from reputable manufacturers, but they don't stand out like a Raptor. While Dodge makes a quality pickup, it is clear their success is in the muscle car market with the Hellcats. Sure, the Shelby and the Camaro ZL1s are great muscle cars but they still don't carry that niche of the ultimate muscle car (think Dodge Demon). BMW has become more a luxury brand that is still a drivers car for its niche. With changing demographics, not everyone wants that.
I remember when I bought my first BMW. It was a 2000 323Ci. I loved that car. It was awesome and fun and so classy looking. There seemed to be a prestige of owning any BMW. Now it seems as the standard BMW is just average. Maybe it's because there are so many more options with competitors. Let's be honest. US cars of the 90s were horrible. They big 3 have come a long way in making something people want. Maybe another problem is over saturation of the M brand. I remember it was rare to find an M car in show rooms. Now some dealers got several sitting out in the weather and elements. After owning 4 M cars, I've had a great experience. But after owning over 25 cars in my lifetime, I can say there are a lot of great options in today's market. The competition is finally caught up with quality products, along with the arrival of new makers. BMW is doing what it can to pick up new market share where they also can be competitive to broaden its base so that it doesn't become irrelevant overall. |
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11-14-2018, 03:36 AM | #27 | |||||||||||||||
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Secondly, as I also said, Audi and Mercedes have created excitement in their small car ranges with a full high performance line up. They didn’t do this just for the US, they did it for the brand globally, and then brought it to the US. Third, being late has already hurt BMW in thousands of units of lost sales opportunity. And now they have to try to penetrate against the established players who already have more exciting versions of their small sedans than BMW will even release in their competing product’s lifecycle. It’s is elementary that coming late to the game with also-ran hadware is not an ideal spot to be in. Quote:
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I also did not say that no one wants a coupe. Clearly some people do want a high performance coupe, but it is just as clear that many more people want a high performance SUV or sedan. Quote:
It is also exactly what Mercedes and Audi have - a small SUV with the same engine and chassis that their hotest small coupe and/or sedan have. And it’s not US product, it’s global product. Quote:
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11-14-2018, 03:36 AM | #28 | |||||||
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I was aware that the 1 and 2GC will fit on the UKL. Quote:
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You're right, there's no mini-sedan yet. There was one, the 3 series, but everyone wanted it bigger and plusher. Back to the original premise: what you need are small sedans and SUVs with 400 bhp+, presumably for going 155 mph in Montana. Sales of those in Germany, for example, are tiny. They all have 1.8 and 2.0 petrols and diesels. You also need electric vehicles like the Tesla, and enthusiasts need extreme track cars you basically trailer to the circuit. What China needs is quite different; what Europe needs is obviously different again. I see absolutely lots of reasons why BMW would consider splitting its product development off for the NA market, as it did with China, and I would put money on it. Last edited by ScottAndrew; 11-14-2018 at 04:32 AM.. |
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11-14-2018, 03:52 AM | #29 | |||
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Both cars that would have US BMW track enthusiasts spluttering with disgust into the their beer, it has to be said . Quote:
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I just wonder if people who liked the M1 when it came out all lined up to denigrate BMW for producing the 316. Actually I know they didn't because I just remembered, I was there... |
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11-15-2018, 07:23 AM | #30 |
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Again, my point is that neither carving out a US niche nor chasing Tesla is going to "fix" BMW for the enthusiast crowd that criticizes them. We want a modern 2002 or E46 M3, which won't sell well in today's United States.
So then they build something like the F30, which is not good and prevents the M models it's based on from being good. As opposed to say, the e46, which was so good that it made its ultimate form, the M3 CSL, legendary. Finally, what you call "haranguing", I call customer feedback. This is one of the largest bmw forums in the world, and an extremely valuable source of customer feedback that they get for free. I hope they're at least reading, even if they ultimately choose not to do anything about it. And ultimately I will make a choice with my wallet like I always do Btw, dropping the whole "if you don't like it, why don't you leave" "argument" is a really poor way to continue a discussion. Are you not really interested in having one, or seeing differing viewpoints? |
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11-15-2018, 08:01 AM | #31 | |
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There are currently about 377,000 members here, but if you look at the last 20 years or so, BMW has sold around 48 million cars. That means that we represent only about 0.7% of the customer base, and that is factoring in used cars. I imagine that for new car sales, the percentage is even smaller. BMW is never going to spend so much R&D to cater to less than 1% of the customer base, it would just be bad business. I highly doubt they spend any significant amount of time looking at any forums, let alone this one. I could be wrong, though. Who knows.
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11-15-2018, 09:11 AM | #32 | ||
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I work in marketing for a company that spends tens of millions of dollars a year in market research. The kind of immediate product feedback that happens here is pure gold - and it's free. You just have index it against other research to make sure you're not just listening to a bunch of outliers. My company has "fanatics" and brand loyalists too, and we listen to them quite a bit. Even if their viewpoints can be extreme, they really care about our products and our brand, and really help us raise the bar with both their positive and negative comments. I think it would be really foolish for BMW to alienate and not even listen to people who care enough about their products to discuss them on the internet all day. But I don't run their marketing department |
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11-15-2018, 09:21 AM | #33 | |
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All fair points, and I am not disagreeing that BMW should at least spend some time investigating the opinions of buyers on forums such as this one. I am just stating that it is unfortunately unlikely. Remember, BMW is an enormous company which spends not 10 million, but nearly 10 BILLION dollars a year in marketing. When a company gets that large, the focus becomes less on the minutia, such as a random internet forum, and more on the global branding in general. Not saying that is the right thing to do, but it is an unfortunate reality.
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11-16-2018, 08:58 PM | #34 |
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After 30 years of BMW ownership and 3 of 4 cars bought new, I doubt BMW will get my new business anytime soon. But...
I think BMW should follow Ford and GM's formula and build a modern-replica of the E30. NA straight 6, manual trans, rear drive. 3,000 pounds. Tall greenhouse. No idrive or effing dash screen. And I'm in.
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11-16-2018, 09:08 PM | #35 | |
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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11-16-2018, 09:08 PM | #36 |
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Somehow most manufacturers correlate vehicle size with level of luxury. What if you want a luxurious car that is smaller? Not everyone likes driving an X5 or a 7. I dropped my car for service yesterday and the dealer offered me a brand new X5 as a loaner. I turned it down. They looked at me as if I were on drugs. I chose an X1 instead. Very pleasant vehicle. I had already driven a 2019 X5 and although it's very nice, it is JUUUGE. I wish I could get the quality of materials of the 7 or 640i GT in the smaller cars like the X1/2, 2/3. It should at least be an option that you 'check' even if it adds a few grand to the price. That would be the best strategy I think. Go cheap as the default configuration but allow people to opt-up all the way to super luxurious regardless of model designation. That is the way to win in my book.
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